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11/9/2011
02:55 PM
Rob Preston
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Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them

Research shows that immigrant-founded companies generate billions in revenue and employ hundreds of thousands of Americans, so why do so many people want to seal our borders?

InformationWeek Now--What's Hot Right Now
My colleague Paul McDougall's recent column on the Occupy Wall Street movement and its potential to make U.S. companies fidgety about their IT offshoring strategies drew a fair bit of reader commentary. McDougall's premise, expanding on comments in the Indian press by HCL Technologies CEO Vineet Nayar, was that the OWS protests could pressure U.S.-based companies to keep IT and other jobs in this country or face a backlash from American citizens increasingly worried about their employment prospects.

The eight commenters came to pretty much the same conclusion: If we keep foreigners out of the U.S., employment will rise and the economy will rebound. One of the more articulate commenters, someone whose "job was outsourced to a foreign company doing business in the US," put things this way:

"We need to put Americans back to work by sending all of these foreign nationals home. Hire Americans first. If a company wants to outsource, require that American citizens and permanent residents are used by the vendor. This would help the economy some. I truly hope that OWS threatens outsourcing to foreign companies and foreign workers."

Another commenter insisted that H-1B and other work visas "be immediately suspended. MILLIONS of our better paying jobs would be instantly RETURNED, to Americans, in America."

While I understand the deep frustrations and fear that accompany 9%-plus national unemployment, I'm not buying this line of reasoning. A body of evidence shows that encouraging highly educated technology and other professionals to come to the U.S., or to stay here after graduating from U.S. universities with engineering or other technical degrees, actually increases employment and economic growth because those go-getters are more likely than the average professional to start and build businesses.

A research team led by Vivek Wadhwa of Duke University, building on studies conducted in the 1990s by AnnaLee Saxenian of the University of California at Berkeley, determined that in a quarter of the U.S. science and tech companies founded between 1995 and 2005, the chief executive or lead technologist was foreign-born. Wadhwa's research estimates that those immigrant-founded companies generated $52 billion in revenue and employed 450,000 people in 2005. In Silicon Valley, the percentage of immigrant-founded startups was even higher: 52% in 2005. Looking over the rich history of the U.S. high-tech industry, consider the economic contributions of companies such as Intel, Oracle, Google, and eBay--all of them with immigrant founders.

Furthermore, Wadhwa's research found that foreign nationals living in this country were listed as inventors or co-inventors in 25.6% of patent applications filed from the U.S. in 2006, up from 7.6% in 1998. Foreign nationals also contributed to most of the patent applications at Qualcomm, Merck, GE, and Cisco at that time, his team found.

More recently, a 2011 report from the Partnership for a New American Economy finds that more than 40% of the current Fortune 500 companies were founded by immigrants or their children. The revenue generated by those companies "is greater than the GDP of every country in the world outside the U.S., except China and Japan," the report states.

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In a speech in Washington in late September, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who made his billions developing systems for financial traders, called on Congress to eliminate the cap on H-1B visas, increase the number of green cards for technical pros, and give foreign students with PhDs in science and tech fields permanent resident status. "Turning these students out of the country is, to put it bluntly, about the dumbest thing we could possibly do," Bloomberg said.

Clearly, foreign nationals aren't just "taking" U.S. jobs; they and their offspring are producing more than their fair share of innovations and economic opportunity, much of it on these shores.

Critics of this line of reasoning will point to the abuses: mainly, the H-1B and other visa holders brought in to do mid-level engineering and other work that could be done by U.S. nationals. But the answer is for government visa issuers to crack down on the abusers, not to end the visa program and shut down immigration of high-skill workers.

What about those U.S. companies moving IT and other jobs offshore by the boatload while accepting U.S. government bailout funds? In this regard, if the Occupy Wall Street climate prompts U.S. businesses and consumers to skew their buying toward companies dedicated to keeping jobs in this country, that's their prerogative. But let individual buyers decide whether to apply that pressure. Don't cede that decision to government bureaucrats.

Rob Preston,
VP and Editor in Chief, InformationWeek
rpreston@techweb.com

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To find out more about Rob Preston, please visit his page.

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phenry017
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phenry017,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 2:01:38 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Again with the "immigrant founders" lie. How many of these "immigrant founders" came to the US on an h-1b visa as opposed to coming here when they were 7 years old? STOP THE LIES AND DISTORTIONS. Why are wages declining in these fields if there is a shortage of workers? You are simply one more cheap labor shill selling out fellow Americans for the benefit of advertisers. Since you don't even work in technology (at least the "hands-on" part of it), I'm not sure why anyone should listen to your opinion.
phenry017
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phenry017,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 2:04:36 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
The whole scam will fall down soon enough and American IT workers like myself won't easily forget the traitors:
http://economictimes.indiatime...

PS. Notice how one has to go to the Indian press for coverage on this? DO YOUR JOB, INFORMATIONWEEK.
rlawson346
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rlawson346,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 2:11:59 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
"A research team led by Vivek Wadhwa of Duke University, building on studies conducted in the 1990s by AnnaLee Saxenian of the University of California at Berkeley, determined that in a quarter of the U.S. science and tech companies founded between 1995 and 2005, the chief executive or lead technologist was foreign-born. Wadhwa's research estimates that those immigrant-founded "

Rob, you should look closer at the experience of Vivek Wadhwa. He has overstated his qualifications, he isn't a true researcher - at least in the academic sense. He doesn't have a Ph.D. There is nothing wrong with being an adjunct professor, but he isn't some big-shot at Duke.

Simply put, each of his "studies" have a predetermined result and would not pass peer review. Agree or not with his politics, the bottom line is that he isn't doing PhD level research.

He claims to be "Director of Research at the Center for Entrepreneurship and Research Commercialization". I'm not saying he isn't, but if you visit the website he isn't listed as a director (in fact, he isn't listed at all on the faculty page). The CERC content is several years old. It isn't what I would expect for an organization that is actively involved in research.

If Wadhwa is a director at Duke, that's a first for someone without a PhD. And they need to update their website. Some articles indicate Wadhwa is "the" director of research at Duke. That is clearly not the case.

Wadhwa has a knack for making mediocre achievements seem grandiose. Look closer at his business past. There are quite a few articles back when he was a CEO that make him appear quite foolish. Journalists at the time talk about how he uses hype, even when at odds with the facts.

This isn't the guy you want to be citing Rob to support your point of view. Not while ignoring research from people who actually know how to conduct it, who have a PhD, and who spend more time in the class room or doing research than on TV playing a professor.

Wadhwa has duped enough people.
EVVJSK
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EVVJSK,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 8:30:11 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I would like to see more information regarding Mr. Wadhwa's credentials. I have seen too many situations where "selective choosing" of sources helps make a point. Oh, and bye the way you don't have to look very far to find out who is really scared of immigration. Like a lot of issues, it is complicated and I am not sure you can lump all immigrants together as to the positive or negative impact they will have on our country.
rlawson346
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rlawson346,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 3:33:52 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I've sent several emails to several administrators at Duke. One person said they would respond back but never did even after I followed up. No response from the others. So far I cannot confirm Wadhwa's title at Duke.

I didn't ask for personal information, just for them to confirm if he is "Director of Research at the Center for Entrepreneurship and Research Commercialization". A simple yes or no would be great.

I find the lack of response bizarre. It should take minutes to confirm, and then respond back with an answer. This is a public university and I think they have some obligation to answer to the public.

Here is his profile - which currently lists him on sabbatical:
http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/cent...

Funny how Wadhwa has commented about us lazy Americans. The guy is on sabbatical. He must need a break from all those imaginary jobs of his.

Here is the CERC website, no mention of Wadhwa:
http://cerc.duke.edu/view/news

Here is his Harvard bio - it was up just a few days ago but now nothing:
http://www.law.harvard.edu/pro...

Here are some interesting articles on Wadhwa from the past:

http://archive.apnic.net/maili...
Mouth piece: Vivek Wadhwa's talent for trumpeting his company shines, but observers want to see another kind of performance. (Feature).
" Wadhwa, usually more than willing to spout stats, says he's too embarrassed to disclose last year's revenue. "We went through four months when deals stopped closing. I've never been that scared about the company."

That's Wadhwa putting on a "strong face" for the company. I'm not sure I've ever heard a CEO tell a business reporter that he is "scared about the company". Soon after that, Wadhwa is kicked to the curb in a dispute with investors. He has a fantastic story about that.

http://wraltechwire.com/busine...
Unable to raise capital, Relativity Technologies sells to U.K. firm for $9.7M
The selling price reflects a small return for investors .... Backers ... had poured more than $24 million into the firm since its founding in 1997 by serial entrepreneur Vivek Wadhwa.
. . . Wadhwa, who left Relativity in a bitter dispute with its investors and no longer holds an interest in the company, said the sale price seemed low to him.

That is one of Wadhwa's success stories - about his glorious entrepreneur days. The guy lost investor 2/3rds of their investment. I wouldn't be bragging about that.

Oh it gets better. Wadhwa - when he's not pretending to be a professor on TV is spin-doctoring his persona - complete with a team of former KGB agents in Russia, to his production (one of ten producers) of a Bollywood film. . . to his story about how all those investors who lost their money under his watch are really the bullies here and poor Vivek is just a victim:
http://www.braingainmag.com/le...

The work he did with the KGB agents, when they weren't playing James Bond I presume, was later referred to as "junk technology" from Seer Technologies - who had had enough of him.

I would leave poor Vivek alone if he wouldn't be such a media whore, didn't embellish his past, and most importantly would stop calling what he does "research". That's an insult to researchers everywhere.
rlawson346
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rlawson346,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 5:37:16 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I was able to get clarification from Duke's Director of Communications and Marketing:

"I am writing to confirm that Vivek Wadhwa does have a non faculty appointment at Duke University. His official HR title is Executive in Residence, but his working title is Director of Research at the Center for Research Commercialization."
rlawson346
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rlawson346,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 7:11:07 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I had a followup question - what the title means in practice. Here is the answer:

"Mr. Wadhwa's appointment is an executive in residence. These are highly flexible and highly variable appointments that allow the university to facilitate individuals from industry engage with our students and faculty. This often takes the form of guest lectures, consulting, mentoring or other collaborations. These appointments are not permanent positions, but can be extended over multiple years if both the individual and the school so desire. "
RobPreston
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RobPreston,
User Rank: Author
11/10/2011 | 5:07:13 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
So what's the right age to consider lettingt immigrants into this country? 4, 7, 13, 21, 72? The point is that if we seal off our borders from immigrants, particularly highly educated immigrants and their families, we're depressing our ability to start businesses, innovate, and ultimately create jobs, as immigrants and their offspring have been particularly adept at starting and building businesses in this country. There's no single profile. Intel co-founder Andy Grove came to the U.S. from Hungary when he was 20 years oldG«Ųhe finished his education here. Oracle co-founder Bob Miner was the son of Assyrian immigrants. Ebay was founded by French-born Iranian-American Pierre Omidyar, who moved to this country when he was 6 years old. Google's Sergey Brin came to the U.S. from Russia when he was 6 as well. Tibco founder Vivek Ranadive came to the States from India at age 17 to study at MIT.
rlawson346
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rlawson346,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 5:43:11 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I'm married to an immigrant. My step-mom is an immigrant. Fully support immigration when done responsibly and with respect towards everyone else already here.

The motivation for immigration is what needs to change. Corporate motives have nothing to do with creating entrepreneurs like Andy Grove. They are almost entirely about lowering the cost of labor.

We need to be building strong families and a citizenry supportive of our American values, not temporary labor pools. The corporate sponsorship requirements amounts to indentured servitude and is a key reason why the majority of workers on corporate sponsored visas earn less than market wages. This puts downward pressure on American wages and working conditions. Unfortunately it also breeds resentment.

In short, immigration should be an agreement between our nation and the immigrant, without corporate middle-men. Let's set criteria that is considerate of the immigrant's talents, support of our nation, and that is also considerate of economic circumstance of the time (more restrictive during poor economic times, less restrictive during periods of economic growth).

We need to focus on permanent immigration in sustainable numbers, not a revolving door of temporary workers who will take their talents home and become tomorrow's competition.

To your points:

"Tibco founder Vivek Ranadive came to the States from India at age 17 to study at MIT."
"Google's Sergey Brin came to the U.S. from Russia when he was 6 as well."
" Andy Grove came to the U.S. from Hungary when he was 20 years old"

None of them were on guest worker visa programs. They came as young children or as college students. I'm certain that Sergey Brin would identify more with the United States than with Russia. Same goes for Andy Grove. These men would not be able to start their own companies on the H-1b visa, and instead would require corporate sponsorship.

So to answer your question "So what's the right age to consider lettingt immigrants into this country? 4, 7, 13, 21, 72?"

I would say we should welcome families and oppose our current guest worker programs that are not family friendly. In my view when it comes to children the younger the better. They will blend right in with our culture. Strong families become strong citizens. Guest workers aren't investing in the United States. They are using our immigration programs as a stepping stone to something better - in their own country.

My step-brother is Korean (now an American citizen). He came when he was 12, and I was his big brother. He since went to college, joined ROTC, and went to medical school. He is now an Army doctor, he's been to Iraq twice, and is helping our wounded soldiers recover from burns, amputations, and things you don't see on the news. He is the face of what immigration should be about and I couldn't be more proud of him. It wasn't about a temporary gig at at Infosys or some other body shop. It was about starting a new life with an extended family and making this country a home.

Motive matters. Cheap labor is not a good motive for immigration. Temporary shortages shouldn't be fixed through temporary immigration programs. Let the market sort it out, not labor subsidies from afar.
FreeMarketeer
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FreeMarketeer,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 7:21:10 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I really liked you comment over all

but I don't believe there should be restrictions during tough economic time and looser restrictions during growth. There should be tuning to economic needs present and future (tomorrow 's economy (meaning in 10-20 or more years) starts today. The crisis period arise from poor planning from politicians, which always steer the boat after they hit the rock, despite seeing coming a mile away.

And in a global economy, you can't completely dismiss cheap labor. It is an inherent part of free market. The problem is when it is overtaken by greed not only from big companies by also from people. If a tomato US grown cost double one from Chile, how many people will get the more expensive one to support their country?
apd230
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apd230,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 8:09:54 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
phenry017 is 100% right on. Rob Preston confuses the issues (not sure if on purpose or not). There is a difference between people coming to America to start better lives for themselves and their children, and people who come here to do a job for a little while and go back overall not really contributing to the society other than letting the big corp keep more money in their pockets. If a company builds software outside of our borders and wants to sell it in the US, they should pay import duties. That's how it works in every other industry.
rlawson346
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rlawson346,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 10:00:41 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
"And in a global economy, you can't completely dismiss cheap labor. It is an inherent part of free market."

If we removed corporate sponsorship, labor flows would be more natural and workers would have more mobility - including both skilled and unskilled immigrants.

Low wage immigration would still exist, but corporations couldn't be as heavy-handed.

" If a tomato US grown cost double one from Chile, how many people will get the more expensive one to support their country?"

China is a great argument against free trade. A great deal of their competitive advantage comes from cheating, and in the name of free trade we don't punish them for their shenanigans. Fear of a trade war prevent us from addressing a number of unfair aspects trade between our nations, like currency manipulation, child labor, authoritarian government, and so forth. It pays to cheat.

Free trade should be the goal, but free trade proponents have failed to create policies that work. Meaning you use incentives and disincentives that will lead to free trade. Most free traders believe that inking a free trade deal and flipping the switch will solve all problems. Never mind that we usually run massive trade deficits, paid for with personal debt (paid back with interest).

When free trade became a political ideology instead of a trade strategy is when it failed.
phenry017
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phenry017,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 5:46:24 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
When did we stop letting immigrants in? How many of the people you mentioned came here on an h-1b visa? You are deliberately mixing the immigration debate with the h-1b visa debate in order to cherry pick immigrants and have the readers believe they came here on visas. In other words, if we ended the h-1b visa tomorrow, every single person you mentioned would still have come to this country.
FreeMarketeer
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FreeMarketeer,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 7:05:15 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
how do you think they came in ??
phenry017
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phenry017,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 7:58:50 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Believe it or not, the vast amount of immigration to the US does not come through cheap labor visa's.
FreeMarketeer
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FreeMarketeer,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 8:41:09 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
My bad I did not make myself clear. The main point of the article is about SKILLED immigration (which is what my question was about). And to my knowledge most of the SKILLED immigration is from legal ways.

Maybe helpful to this discussion is the following census information: http://www.census.gov/compendi...

We (and I amongst them) are all aware of issues of illegal immigrations which I am against although I believe there is a place for legal immigration pathways for low/no-skilled workers.

These distinctions are important.

hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 1:01:02 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
>> The point is that if we seal off our borders from immigrants, particularly highly educated immigrants and their families, we're depressing our ability to start businesses, innovate, and ultimately create jobs, as immigrants and their offspring have been particularly adept at starting and building businesses in this country. <<

Hardly

Somehow we were able to "innovate" without importation of "highly educated" immigrants from 1945 to 2000.

Of course, we always welcome the "true geniuses" but one does not have that many "true geniuses" to begin with.

IT is just labor. If you don't want to pay to get a qualified American then don't do the job.

>> There's no single profile. <<

Agreed

>> Intel co-founder Andy Grove came to the U.S. from Hungary when he was 20 years oldG«Ųhe finished his education here. <<

If Andy Grove then Intel would have been started by someone else. One of the biggest myths is that engineering is started by one solitary genius. It doesn't work that way. Engineering is not like theoretical physics such that a solitary Einstein does the majority of the work.

>> Oracle co-founder Bob Miner was the son of Assyrian immigrants. Ebay was founded by French-born Iranian-American Pierre Omidyar, who moved to this country when he was 6 years old. Google's Sergey Brin came to the U.S. from Russia when he was 6 as well. Tibco founder Vivek Ranadive came to the States from India at age 17 to study at MIT. <<

It is hardly fair to lump a six year old as a "immigrant". Said person got his education in the US and if it he did not do the startup then most likely someone else would have.
DanaRothrock
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DanaRothrock,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 2:24:44 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
The "O" visa is for geniuses and it is unlimited cap. H-1B and L-1 visas are the Trojan Horse to offshore outsourcing.
Guest
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Guest,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/14/2011 | 1:58:58 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Corrections:

All of the founders of Oracle were born in the US. Bob Miner was born in Cicero, IL. I am not sure what Bob Miner's parents have to do with the founding of Oracle.

The integrated circuit, Intel's innovation, was invented by Bob Noyce (born Iowa). Intel was founded by Gordon Moore (born SF, CA) and Noyce. They hired Grove.
melgross
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melgross,
User Rank: Ninja
11/10/2011 | 5:31:35 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
You are really drinking Microsoft and other tech companies Kookaid. So there maybe several dozen companies founder by foreigners, but tens of thousands of others let in every year (or more) to TAKE jobs away.

When we see that there are hundreds of thousands of computer professionals in this country that are out of work, and people are coming in on those visas, earning less, then something isn't right. When Microsoft, who makes tens of billions every year in profit, complains that Americans earn too much, and so they need these cheaper people, it's a stunning example of greed.

I suppose you really don't keep up on any of this.
FreeMarketeer
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FreeMarketeer,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 7:02:31 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Do you have evidence to back up the numbers you are proposing?

if let's say100 (conservative number) fortune 500 companies are founded by immigrants or son of an immigrant (for example Steve Jobs). They have created more than the ten thousands of jobs in US.

This being said there is a need to spend time thinking on whether there is a greed component to the hiring of immigrants. I believe it does exist but have a hard time believing it is a major factor although I have no data to back that up. If it is in certain companies it certainly is and they should pay a price, although I would not expect this to be very effective
phenry017
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phenry017,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 8:10:40 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Are you deliberately avoiding my question? How many fortune 500 companies were founded BY H-1B HOLDERS? Cue the crickets.
FreeMarketeer
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FreeMarketeer,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 8:57:19 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
H1-B holders cannot create a company by law.
phenry017
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phenry017,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 12:29:11 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
You just basically destroyed your own argument. On one hand, you are saying that we should let them in because of all the jobs they create and on the other, you are saying that they cannot create companies. So, let's try a different question. How many fortune 500 companies were founded by immigrants who started as h-1b holders? My guess is zero. As a matter of fact, why don't you and some of the other cheap labor proponents (like the author of this "article") come up with a list of at least A FEW companies to back up your assertion that h-1b holders create jobs.
apd230
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apd230,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 8:17:36 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
> if let's say100 (conservative number)

that's actually very optimistic number, Steve Jobs' father was a bum. Steve Jobs was born in America and afforded all the opportunities of being America. People have a problem with a scenario when a company XYZ decides to send work offshore and fire American workers. I have seen this scenario personally so spare the Steve Jobs type of examples. This is not a debate about "hiring immigrants" , this is a debate about "should we hire a foreigner in a foreign country to build our next version". Rob Preston did not think this article through.
FreeMarketeer
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FreeMarketeer,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 9:09:25 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Steve Jobs father was a bum WITH A Ph. D. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S... see personal life section)..

No I think company exporting jobs abroad is a very worthy point but I disagree that this is what the above article is about.

My opinion on people exporting US jobs abroad is that there is a greed component but mostly a new economy needs to emerge (energy saving, recycling materials, and new sources of energy). Unfortunately we tend to wait too late to start pushing for that to happen. And that creates low growth or recession periods in between high growth. These new jobs will not be exportable.

rlawson346
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rlawson346,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 6:02:05 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
"More recently, a 2011 report from the Partnership for a New American Economy finds that more than 40% of the current Fortune 500 companies were founded by immigrants or their children. "

That's like saying "Republicans recently released a report denouncing Democrats as Socialists" or "Democrats recently released a report that Republicans are wrong about everything".

This is an immigration advocacy group representing business interests. One of their stated goals: Create a streamlined process by which employers can get the seasonal and permanent employees they need, when Americans aren't filling vacant jobs;

Yes, they want to continue temporary corporate sponsored immigration programs where they have total control of the worker. Wouldn't you expect a group with that as a stated goal to release "research" supporting their goals? You don't actually expect them to do unbiased, independent research do you?
FreeMarketeer
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FreeMarketeer,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 6:46:32 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
40% of fortune 500 company have been founded by immigrants or their children is a verifiable FACT. Google it and check fortune 500 founders, you will see quickly that it is true.

"Democrats recently released a report that Republicans are wrong about everything" or the opposite would be equally easy....TO REFUTE since anybody can find something either democrats or republicans have messed up, especially lately.

I am a scientist and since "taking an american job", the inventions I created have led to the creation of multiple positions, including two scientists positions. Let alone I pay healthy taxes, bought a house etc... You can prevent immigration all you want this will not solve the economic problems. Wealthy countries will low immigration rate suffer the same economic problems right now. Plus despite toughest immigration limits to date (for example reduction of H1-b visa from 200,000 down to 60,000 in 2004, same thing with other visas), you still are in deep economic crisis. Plus it is not like there was a spike in immigration before the economic collapse but yet people insist on blaming immigrants as #1 reason for high unemployment

The only thing that will solve it is to promote innovation and new technology leading to job that won't be exportable.
rlawson346
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rlawson346,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 7:11:49 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
"I am a scientist and since "taking an american job", the inventions I created have led to the creation of multiple positions, including two scientists positions. Let alone I pay healthy taxes, bought a house etc... "

And you don't represent the majority of people on the H-1b visa, who are primarily junior level, paid below market wage, here on temporary assignment with a staffing firm, and changing jobs puts them at risk of losing their visa. Not to mention they are unable to start their own business.

As a scientist appreciative of numbers and facts, you must also appreciate common economic principles - such as the law of supply and demand. There is a finite demand for most of the jobs being filled by H-1b workers. Filling that demand where there is no shortage doesn't create jobs, it only reduces the earning power of those already here.

Unfortunately, if you are on an H-1b visa and like the majority of people on that visa unable to gain permanent residency status, you will be forced to take your knowledge back home and compete against us. I don't know your particular situation, but supporting a program that builds our future competition is dumb.

Your moniker is "FreeMarketeer" so I assume you hold a free-market ideology. What is free market about employer sponsored immigration programs? Or do you think the free market should only apply to industry, and labor should have lesser freedom?

As to the 40% statistic, that number was arrived at by profiling surnames. That isn't accurate (some would call it racist). Also most companies have numerous founders, so if just one is a foreign citizen or child of one, that company counts in that statistic as if the company was 100% foreign founded. That statement isn't to diminish the role that foreign people play in business, but to set the record straight. That statistic was provided by an activist researcher, not someone conducting independent study.
FreeMarketeer
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FreeMarketeer,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 11:09:03 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I appreciate your comments on the 40% number and the spirit in which it is given. I also have a big problem with the fact that a H1-b holders that loose their jobs and are sent home competing against you. That and people that are educated in US universities and sent home. In a way H1b or green cards is the expression of global free-market in a world where most countries do not follow free market rules (at least not really).

One issue is where does free market stops in a global economy. Does it stop at the US border. Eventually, long after I have passed away, it will be global for labor too.
rlawson346
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rlawson346,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 11:40:27 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
"One issue is where does free market stops in a global economy. Does it stop at the US border."

I would say the free trade would be reciprocal trade. Doesn't do us much good to open our markets to our trading partners, to have them close or restrict their markets in return.

For free trade to work, you really need a common currency, common labor laws, common environmental laws. Andy you've got to give up sovereignty. Similar to what the EU has - but as we are witnessing that doesn't guarantee success. The EU is in serious economic trouble right now.

We have free trade between the 50 states. I think that if you want to have free trade with the US, ideally that country would petition us for statehood. In short I would support NAFTA if the Canadian provinces and Mexican states became sovereign US states or territories. Federal laws, a common currency, free travel between states would make free trade possible.
DanaRothrock
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DanaRothrock,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 2:50:03 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
FreeMarketeer - "I am a scientist "

Practically none of the H-1B visas go to scientists. This is the big lie. There are other unlimited visas available to scientists and CEOs.

45% to 72% of H-1B visas go to computer programmers. My career has been destroyed by H-1B and offshoring. My highest earning period was 1998, before the cap was raised from 65,000 to 195,000. In 2005 I couldn't find a job in the entire US. Sent over 3,000 resumes.

Our colleges turn out over 600,000 STEM graduates every year. There are less than 120,000 STEM job opennings per year. That is 5 graduates for every job (2006). The job numbers are negative now. Why add young, single foreign workers who don't own property, don't have children or student loans, and are willing to work for 30% to 50% less than a citizen?

Globalization and Cowboy Capitalism has nearly destroyed the economies of the world. What more evidence do you need? This path is repeated historically and leads to disaster. Isolationism and protectionism are the only remedies to pull us out of this black hole of greed and treason.
IAmNumber813
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IAmNumber813,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 6:15:59 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Unfortunately, our U.S. STEM jobs are regularly being posted on India's main jobs board by the hundreds (which the author of this "article" conveniently neglects):

www dot naukri dot com

This Indian job site regularly lists jobs by American companies in India that have weekend walk-in interviews and on-the-spot hiring. This is how American companies conducted business in the U.S. during the pre-H-1B innovative and booming time periods. This is where the rubber meets the road and one of the main reasons why Americans cannot find jobs in the U.S.
apd230
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apd230,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 8:20:48 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
"I am a scientist and since "taking an american job", the inventions I created have led to the creation of multiple positions, including two scientists positions. Let alone I pay healthy taxes, bought a house etc.."

all of those things could have been done by an American as well if he or she was hired for that position. Your opinion is heavily biased and does not change anything. However, it looks like you are also confusing issues because people who come to have a life in America and companies outsourcing jobs are TWO separate issues.
FreeMarketeer
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FreeMarketeer,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 9:53:09 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I was hired because I was the best off the few candidates that had the proper skills to fill the job at this time, not because I was foreigner. There is a time frame and skill sets required in filling any position. You cannot wait around for the right american candidate to fill the position.
So me being in the country resulted in a positive job creation.

And I will remake the point I made earlier that the number of skilled workers from foreign countries has been severely reduced in 2004 (H1-b was divided by three). I don't see that it has helped unemployment in any way.

And I am not confused about the difference between companies outsourcing jobs but I agree that the author of the article probably is. It is indeed two different issues.
hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 1:24:22 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
>> I was hired because I was the best off the few candidates that had the proper skills to fill the job at this time, not because I was foreigner. <<

Presumably a qualified American was one of the few candidates.

>> There is a time frame and skill sets required in filling any position. <<

Agreed

>> You cannot wait around for the right american candidate to fill the position. <<

Sure you can.

Although that does not appear to be the problem in your case. Unless you are doing something at the true genius level then an American employer is not entitled to the best qualified worker on the planet but only the best qualified American applicant.

Don't like the American applicant ??

Well

Tough Luck

Not my job to train your workforce.

>> So me being in the country resulted in a positive job creation. <<

No it didn't.

>> And I will remake the point I made earlier that the number of skilled workers from foreign countries has been severely reduced in 2004 (H1-b was divided by three). I don't see that it has helped unemployment in any way. <<

Incorrect.

H1Bs were at 65,000 prior to 2000 and then went up to 195,000 in 2000 and 2001 and going back down to 65,000 in 2002.

braya
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braya,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/27/2011 | 12:43:00 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
When the American economy was good and products and services in America were cheap because of programs such as the H-1B Visa, outsourcing. off-shoring, etc. Americans were certainly not whining or at least the majority of Americans didn't

Blame that to Corporate America.

Everything is fair in love and in war. In this case, Trade Wars.
CWoo
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CWoo,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 8:00:58 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
We're talking about two different things here. Skilled and highly educated immigrants, entrepreneurs were always welcome and theyG«÷ve done tremendous service to this country. But the current majority of foreign IT workers on H1-B visas are far from that. They are less skilled then their American counterparts for the most part and they serve one purpose, cost reduction. They simply willing to do it for less and the current PC craze makes the perfect environment for them and the companies employing them to thrive. The clients then pay the price for this. If youG«÷re an IT worker in the USA today, can you recall at least one project that failed for the mentioned reasons? Anyone named the real reasons of the failure? I didnG«÷t think so. Yes, we need skilled workforce but the golden rule applies just like anywhere else: you got what you paid for.
Tommie1
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Tommie1,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 8:01:53 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Rob, you are mixing two completely separate issues. You introduce the piece by talking about IT offshoring, then ignore that issue completely until briefly touching on it in your final paragraph. Offshoring is a much more serious issue than that of foreign nationals working here; at least if they work here, they spend their money here and pay taxes here.

You take the stance that the government should not have a role in addressing offshoring - whatever happened to the notion of government of the people by the people and FOR the people? Government's role in the offshoring issue is to create an environment that levels the playing field at least somewhat for US workers, for example by providing tax incentives to companies to employ people in the US and/or withholding tax incentives from companies that ship jobs overseas. All companies that claim tax credits or writeoffs should have those reduced or eliminated based on any offshoring activities.
bguesman
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bguesman,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 8:14:15 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
The Educational system in this country (not immigration) is the real problem here. If we had more focus on being proficient in certain disciplines or obtaining specific skills vs. being "well rounded" we would be able to overcome our jobless woes. For example, people from other countries in their early years focus on science & engineering in their home countries then come to the U.S. and get a degree in the Medical or Technology fields. In the meantime our kiddies are taught just a little bit of everything and continue to graduate with majors such as "Women's Studies" or "Communications". I read an article about a female that went to Yale and graduated with a degree in "Women's Studies" and "History" and now wonders why she can't find a job or pay her $280,000 in college debt.

We need to change the education system in this country in order to compete!
IAmNumber813
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IAmNumber813,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 6:35:00 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I also saw a story on CNN where a Yale graduate, majoring in Physics, finished at the TOP of his Yale graduating class but couldn't find a job. Blaming the U.S. education system is a lobbyist diversionary tactic. Why didn't IBM or Intel or Microsoft R&D hire him? What is your lobby address on K-Street in Washington, D.C.?
CBailey
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CBailey,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 8:37:38 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
On the macro level I believe the USA's economic success is because each immigrant group brought incredible drive and work ethic (and I'd guess most readers have immigrant ancestors). This includes the current wave of Asian and Hispanic immigrants. On the other hand I've seen abuse of the visa program. I worked for a client (a Fortune 500 company) who contracted heavily with body shops that brought over IT talent from India. These people were on short term arrangements and worked for low wages. For the client it was all about the money, even though the quality of talent was poor. They used the low billing rates to pressure the company I worked for (and other contractors) to lower our rates as much as possible, and used us only for a few key positions. We were unable to expand our role at the client and bring in more junior staff, because we simply couldn't come anywhere near the rates of the Indian body shops. At that time we were laying people off due to declining business.
Wakjob2
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Wakjob2,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 4:35:47 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
We've been importing MILLIONS of people from the 3rd world for 13 years. America is going down the tubes, not suceeding. It WAS succeeding before when Americans were running it. 84% of the US population was born here. Do you really expect us to believe 16% of the population is running the country and the rest are sitting around doing nothing? If these people are so great then why is CA going bankrupt and why isn't the economy booming like it was in 1998 when Americans were running it. America makes, the world takes.
ANON1246027497879
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ANON1246027497879,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 9:57:23 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I have to agree that two different issues are being mixed here. I am the child of legal immigrants, who came here seeking a better life. No corporation "sponsored" them to get low wages and to displace US workers. They came, found any available job that did not impact American workers, and worked themselves up the ladder so that their children could have more opportunities.

H1B is different. Rob totally misses (or ignores) corporations clamoring for more visas, and their only justification is "we can't find enough skilled workers". The truth is, they can't find the skilled workers AT THE LOWER RATES THEY WANT TO PAY. You have an abundance of skilled IT workers already in the US, particularly older ones, who have those very skills they are looking for - but corporation know that someone coming from a country where the equivalent pay is $5K would happily take a job in the US for $20K that they would have to pay a US worker $50K. That is the ONLY reason why they want the visa program expanded.

In addition, those coming in on visas are more likely to funnel the money back to their home countries that try to expand things here - the low pay goes further there. They have no incentive to create new jobs here!

So letting immigrants in legally to contribute and prosper is one thing. Expanding a program to provide work visas to avoid paying fair wages to American workers, who already have the skills but for which companies do not want to pay fair market value, is totally different. Shoddy research comparing apples to oranges doesn't help things.
shc
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shc,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 10:26:30 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I'm a former H1-B from the UK and now a US Citizen.

You have part of the problem in your column.

'encouraging highly educated technology and other professionals to come to the U.S'

Educated does not mean skilled hence why doctors Intern in hospitals post graduation for years.

Many of the H1B immigrants are former students barely out of University. In some cases they are brought over as contractors by there own countrymen that have made it in the USA. They are not better than a skilled American worker they are just cheaper. If US corporations committed to training rather than replacing staff they would often have a loyal and better quality staff, and would need fewer of them because skilled folks are usually more efficient. I think many workers would even accept a short lock in say 3-6 months after training to prevent train and run as so often happens.

I started writing Fortran IV at 13. I had been programming informally for 21 years but I didnt have a formal qualification in IT until I did a 26 week full time course at a UK college. When I left I then got a Job as a Trainee Programmer. Six months later I became a Junior Programmer and 12 Months after that a Senior Programmer. Titles in that company were based on job skills and performance following management and Peer review not just time served. 15 Years later I moved to the USA.

Nowadays after a 10 week course you leave a certified xxxx engineer. Many also leave University with certifications but no experience. Many of those certified are frankly not much use for many months or even years unless they already had real IT skills before they started the course. There is no substitute for real experience. Cheap people cost more in the long run because they haven't 'Been there, done that and learned from it'.

I do not want a ban on H1B's. I would like to see a real attempt to recruit locally or nationally and relocate, rather than advertising in the Farmers Gazette in Nowhere, Wisconsin (sorry Wisconsin readers) for a postion in New York. Only when there really is nobody available should a H1B be issued. Many H1B migrants are only here because some Lawyer knows how to work the system.

Lets get Respect and Honourable behaviour back into Corporate USA. Stop working the system and lets start engaing the people.
Wakjob2
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Wakjob2,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 4:33:46 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were both college dropouts. No PhDs there. Creativity and drive is more important then knowledge. Besides, it is well known cheating in US colleges is rampant among imported Asian students. Google "Duke Asian cheating scandal". What a fraud.
braya
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braya,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/27/2011 | 12:47:05 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Answer: Lobbyists. The system is "workable" by lawyers and it was intentionally made that way. Why? Washington, Inc.
bgross105
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bgross105,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 10:29:19 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
You wrote Oracle like some other companies were founded by immigrants. As far as I know Bronx, NY is in the US and so Larry Ellison is no immigrant. There were other co-founders Robert "Bob" Miner was a co-founder of Oracle Corporation born in Cicero, Illinois, also in the US. I am not sure where Ed Oats was born, the third co-founder but I am assuming you were referring to Larry Ellison as an immigrant. Nope.
weaver
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weaver,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 11:05:52 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I have to credit Rob for correctly quoting the NFAP study. The problem is that nowhere in the study does it say "American Jobs". The study uses a lot of weasle-words and has been misquoted on many occasions.

The actual NFAP study does not say 5 American are hired.
Here's what the study does say...
(weasle words in bold)

Fifty-two percent of companies responding to the survey believed that for every H-1B professional they hired it created one or more complementary jobs at their firms or in the U.S. economy. Twenty-two percent thought the hiring of an H-1B visa holder created 10 or more jobs. Seventy-four percent of company respondents said an inability to fill positions because of the lack of H-1B visas has potentially affected their G«£companyG«÷s competitiveness against foreign competitors or in international markets.G«•

In the End Notes:

"Employment data were obtained from company filings and HooverG«÷s. Total employment in the data could include global offices for the companies in the sample. S&P 500 membership changes from time to time."

http://www.nfap.com/pdf/080311...
weaver
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weaver,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 11:17:47 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
The funny thing about the Wadhwa study (25% having (one) foreign born (of two) founders) was that Wadhwa used foreign sounding names and that at minimum 75% percent had a U.S. citizen as a founder. Further, Wadhwa's study clearly states one of two founders, but did not indicate how many U.S. citizens participated in the 25% foreign born founded firms.

Finally, Wadhwa's foreign patentng statistic also coincides with the advent of the "Patent Troll" phenomena we are experiencing. Wadhwa's study does not look at the quality of the patent, or if the owner of the patent is considered a 'Patent Troll".

I haven't looked at the 40% study, but I'm sure that it quotes the NFAP and Wadhwa junk science noted above.
weaver
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weaver,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 11:30:22 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Mr. Preston,

We have already tried it your way...bending over hackwards to allow foreign workers to particiate in our economy. The result has been the worst decade in BLS history for growth in employment levels.

Total employment growth for the decade was only 3.2 million, two thirds of total employment growth went to persons 65 yrs. and older. The working age population (16 through 64), increased by 22 million in the first decade of the 21st century; employment growth for the decade was only 1 million jobs in that working age population.
http://immigration-weaver.blog...

Even before the meltdown, employment level growth was statistcally below the worst decade on record.

1950s
Population Growth = 11,516,000
Employment Growth = 7,215,000 (63%)

2000s (to June 2008)
Population Growth = 24,795,000
Employment Growth = 11,953,000 (48%)

http://immigration-weaver.blog...
weaver
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weaver,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/10/2011 | 11:31:42 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Earlier comment should read 75% had no foreign born founder, while is is very possible that much of the 25% had a U.S. citizen as one of the two founders.
pdlane
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pdlane,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 12:20:25 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
This is the most slanted and mixed information screed I have read in years.
It reads like it was written by the H1-B Lobby.
The studies appear to be written by foreign students to justify their H1-B status
The article is fraught with misleading data selected to substantiate the theme of the article
Wakjob2
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Wakjob2,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 4:32:23 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
That'e because it WAS written by the H-1B lobby - namely NASSCOM which hires US PR firms to promote its agenda in US news outlets - learn how the PR game works.
hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 12:53:20 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Another blog quoting a bogus Wadwha study.

Of course, Foreigners take IT jobs.

The question is are we better off with an H1B program or not ??

The only way to get a definitive answer would be to clone the US for the past 20 years not having an H1B program which is clearly impossible.

What is known is for the past decade, IT salaries have been going down not only in real dollars adjusted for inflation but in absolute dollars not adjusted for inflation.

Most IT work is not worthy of any special consideration and is just labor. most of these "innovations" would have been created even if the foreigners have not arrived.

sscott765
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sscott765,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 12:57:10 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Rob - You've missed the entire title of this piece. This is not about starting a business but those positions which make that business operate. As a solution provider I've watched 100's of IT individuals let go for one reason. Someone in India, Brazil, China, or some other country will do a quarter of the work for pennies on the dollar. This is the issue we're facing. Next time you choose to write an article, title it correctly.
WandaB
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WandaB,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 1:24:45 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
America is not a country, it is an economy for people around the world to exploit. Let's deregulate immigration. Deregulation has worked wonders so let's expand upon it. Since there are only 300 million people living here we should promote a half billion Chinese and another half a billion Indians etc. etc. to come here to grow our stagnant economy.
Also, close our universities so young people don't waste their time studying technical subjects when foreign workers can do these jobs more economically.

All hail the Economy. All hail the Foreigner. Globalism Uber Alles.
CM225
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CM225,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 2:26:14 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I highly recommend that readers of this blog follow up by fact-checking sources that can be found at: G«£http://24ahead.com/immigrants-.... To summarize some of the highlights which rebut the Partnership for a New American Economy Report : 1) Many or possibly most of the companies listed as G«£immigrant foundedG«• were co-founded with American-born citizens who were not children of immigrants, which means that the proportion of all founders who were first or second generation immigrants is substantially less than 40%; 2) Steve Jobs is listed as being Syrian-born when he was actually born in San Francisco; 3) The PNAE report includes companies whose founders came to this country a really long, long time ago (DuPont, Bell) and 4) Intel is listed as being founded by Andy Grove, who did come to this country as a child and worked with the company when it was founded, but is not actually cited by the company as being a co-founder with Bob Noyce and Gordon Moore.

I would personally argue that there are socio-dynamic forces at work here that deserve deeper analysis rather than a knee-jerk reaction that successful entrepreneurship comes predominantly from the immigrant sector. In the post-World War 2 era, our economy absolutely boomed with companies that were not predominantly founded by immigrants. It was a time when company loyalty to its employees meant investment in their education and training, and that investment paid off. My all-American (though third generation immigrant) father worked as a geologist for the same company for thirty years, and both he and the company benefited from that long term association (two major mines still in production today). Ingenuity was then nurtured in somewhat of a protective cocoon, but such an ethos is a thing of the past. Wall Street rewards the short term, quick buck and treats individuals as interchangeable commodities. Companies that donG«÷t outsource their jobs or import cheap foreign labor are not regarded as good short term investments. This ethos has facilitated a sort of faddish glorification of all that is foreign, and I would argue, this has occurred at the expense of fostering American ingenuity, jobs, and buying power. The result? Well, the stats speak volumes about the evisceration of our economy.

Thus, the real story should be why our economy is foundering when 40% of our Fortune 500 companies were founded by immigrants or the children of immigrants.

Certainly, the authors of the PNAE report should be pleased to know that there is really no great cause for concern that the number of immigrant professionals in the scientific fields will fall short of the 40% figure that they seem to feel is a benchmark for immigrant representation in entrepreneurship. If readers peruse NSF statistics on STEM postdoctoral scientists working in the U.S. in 2008, http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/... they will see that 43% were temporary residents from abroad and the proportion has likely grown since 2008. Universities and high tech corporations have fueled this growth to keep the labor pool large and salaries low. In my first postdoctoral appointment after my Ph.D., I made less money than the custodian who swept the floors of our lab.
MWEGMAN000
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MWEGMAN000,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 3:43:19 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
You know I have lived in the U.S. a number of years, 50+, born and raised here. Back in the 1950's, 60's and so forth during the NASA Apollo space program, etc. and I started in IT in the late 70's this country never had a problem finding capable and willing individuals to achieve what was done. Starting oh about the 90's all of sudden we have this shortage of qualified labor and about every other excuse to let people into this country to take our jobs.
I'll tell you what has changed Mr. Preston are these companies being greedy enough to pull the stunts that they have to undercut the labor in the U.S. Your b.s. article about foreigners creating jobs is just that, b.s. They never have, period. You can post all of the statistical study information you want but none of it means anything. Your article is like saying people who are members of Mensa are the most successful based on their I.Q. Is that true, why hell no it isn't.
If your so called foreigners are so successful at creating jobs then why aren't they doing it in their own origin country? Explain that!
Personally I hope the holy grail of all conflaguration breaks out in this country and the people mob the politician's, the wealthy, including people like Bloomberg, and do as they please with these individuals because they are the cause of all of the turmoil not only in the U.S. and everywhere else.
Absolutely the foreigners here should be deported back to their country of origin and let them become successful there, if they so desire too. Get them off of my tax dollar paid stipids and other aid given to them. Suffice to say let their own country and government pay for their education and welfare and lets put a stop to one of the most costly social programs in the U.S. of corporate funding, those Visa programs.
Sorry to say Mr. Preston your article smells of manure any way you spread it.
Wakjob2
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Wakjob2,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 3:55:11 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Not this tired old data again. Wadhwa's "study" has already been discredited: 1) it was merely an informal phone survey, not a real scientific study, 2) the data comes from the 90s - during which IT was 98% white American males until early 1999. Americans built the industry, then in 1999-2001 millions of 3rd world flooded in and *started* companies using US venture capital. The study then took the data from those people and concluded that 52% of all startups had foreign founders. Well anyone can START a company. How many of them are still around and how many were merely sucking America's VC off into the pockets of foreign workers and then went belly up 5 years later. The data is stale at least, and not representative of what actually happened. 3) I'd like to see the list of actual founders of Fortune 500 companies who were foreign born. Many F500 companies were started 100 years ago by EUROPEAN immigrants who had judeo-Christian backgrounds, not by Asian wannabes who are little more than industrial thieves. America has lost 28 MILLION jobs since 1998. 28 MILLION! 450,000 jobs? Pfft! We've got 20 million Americans out of work right now - mainly because those anti-American foreigners are deliberately keeping Americans out of jobs due to historical grievances (Britain's colonization of India and China 100-200 years ago.) Give me a break. America is being plundered by (mostly) Asians and everyone knows it. 13 years of importing these people by the millions of destroyed our economy. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a diffeent result. When Americans were running the economy 13 years ago, everyone had a job and it was booming. Time to close the doors and DEPORT the TEMPORARY guest workers who were supposed to go home in 2002 as agreed, but never did.
FreeThinker42
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FreeThinker42,
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11/11/2011 | 3:55:59 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
The analysis in this article appears to be flawed. As others have pointed out, this seems to be mixing a discussion on immigrants with H-1B workers. Obviously, the two are completely different, if for no other reason, one is more permanent while the other is temporary.

On the subject of H-1B and offshore outsourcing, one of the biggest flaws with this type of outsourcing is that it is a decision made on spreadsheet. A bean counter sees a lower price per hour and assumes they will save money on the false assumption that IT professionals are plug and play.

What the said bean counter fails to take into account is the cost multipliers of taking more hours to get the job done, lower quality of work, rework, missed business opportunities by not being able to get what you need when you need it(that is, a lack of agility), and the cost of doing the wrong thing because lower cost labor doesn't know the business and has no loyalty to the business; they either don't notice that what is being requested might not be the right thing to do, or they just don't care.

When you are billed 6 hours for what should have taken 1 hour of labor, and it takes 3 months to get the work done, after it has to be fixed, are you really saving any money? Or how about when they suggest that they spend 20 days of effort to redesign a process that takes about 2 hours to execute, and is only used once ever couple of years; really, that did happen(and I stopped it because it was a huge waste of time and money, and the proposed process would have failed).

While education and training are important, they are no replacement for experience, talent, skill, intuition, innovation, commitment, personally initiative, or passion; which, ironically, are traits that the immigrants(or children of immigrants) alluded to in the 'article' posses. Though, a lot of other people in the US who are multiple generations removed from their immigrant ancestors also posses those traits.

Now, I will say, not all H-1Bs are bad or lack the traits mentioned above. I have worked with some that put in the effort to understand the systems they worked on and the business that those systems supported. They make a commitment and then they stick to it; and if they can't, they communicate that to you instead of telling you everything is fine until it too late.
But, my experience has been these few individuals have been exception.

Of course, when we have been fortunate enough to have one of these exceptions working for us and they become truly productive, they end up getting reassigned. Then, we go back to the beginning training someone else, which cost time and money, while hoping we will win the lottery again.

And, in all fairness, I do see some these H-1Bs treated like indentured servants, working long hours supporting too many systems, while their firms reap the benefits. Some are even bused around by the firms they serve, between home and work, and I don't envy them one bit. When you think about it, they are not left with a lot of options.

But, I do think H-1B and overseas outsourcing do create some jobs, and some well paying ones, as the messes left behind have to fixed by someone, and fixed a lot quicker than the time it took to make them. And, as salaries for H-1Bs increase, along with the increasing costs of infrastructure, oversight, and related processes, companies may find themselves in a situation similar to the pre-2000 era.
Wakjob2
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11/11/2011 | 4:10:37 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Let's take apart Bob's argument piece by piece:

"expanding on comments in the Indian press by HCL Technologies CEO Vineet Nayar"

.... Nayar is a known racist (made a blanket statement that "American grads are unemployable"). His company was also BANNED from working on the Boeing 787 Dreamliner project because when FAA inspected their software, it was so bad it was deemed unfit for use. FAA told Boeing to BAN HCL from working on 787. Does anyone really take the opinions of such a fraud seriously? Nayar is a laughingstock.

"The eight commenters came to pretty much the same conclusion: If we keep foreigners out of the U.S., employment will rise and the economy will rebound."

Absolutely true. What it boils down to is simply this: Americans spend their $ here, foreign workers send it home. These young guys from India come here at 23 with a goal of sending $25K a year home for 6 years and then going home and retiring in style in India. $150K USD is a small fortune in India - easily enough to retire on. For every Indian worker we import, the US loses the taxes paid on $150K (L-1s pay no taxes), and a good chunk of that that *would* have been spent into the US economy if it had been paid to a US worker instead. Imagine what would happen to the US economy if we gave 10 million American workers jobs tht paid $150K each. That's why we had a BOOM before we imported these people, but have a bust now. This isn't rocket science.

"A body of evidence shows that encouraging highly educated technology and other professionals to come to the U.S., or to stay here after graduating from U.S. universities with engineering or other technical degrees, actually increases employment and economic growth because those go-getters are more likely than the average professional to start and build businesses. "

If that is the case then why has the US lost 28 million jobs over the last 13 years that we have been importing millions of these same people? The people we're bringing here are not highly educated or skilled - we're TRAINING them. Can anyone name any new industry or product invented in India or China that anyone uses that wasn't first invented elsewhere? (Probably in the US)? Why aren't we importing millions of Japanese and Germans - they are obviously better engineers than Indians or Chinese. No, what we are doing is pure communism - taking from the productive people (Americans) and giving to the rest of the world that has sat around for THOUSANDS of years doing nothing.

"A research team led by Vivek Wadhwa of Duke University, building on studies conducted in the 1990s by AnnaLee Saxenian of the University of California at Berkeley"

This "study" has already been discredited in many places - it was nothing more than an informal phone survey and was flawed - for instance the study only checked on how many immigrants *started* companies, not how many were still around and profitable 5 years later. It also didn't determine how many *Americans* are employed in those companies. I am sure jobs were created - but for foreign workers, not Americans.

"Looking over the rich history of the U.S. high-tech industry, consider the economic contributions of companies such as Intel, Oracle, Google, and eBay--all of them with immigrant founders."

Intel was founded by 2 Americans born here - Bob Noyce and Gordon Moore, not by Andy Grove. Oracle was founded by an American - Larry Ellison, Google had an American co-founder and the other founder emigrated to the US at age THREE. Stop the lies!

"In a speech in Washington in late September, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who made his billions developing systems for financial traders, called on Congress to eliminate the cap on H-1B visas, increase the number of green cards for technical pros, and give foreign students with PhDs in science and tech fields permanent resident status."

Looks like NASSCOM got to Bloomberg and is paying him to promote this stuff too.

"Clearly, foreign nationals aren't just "taking" U.S. jobs; they and their offspring are producing more than their fair share of innovations and economic opportunity, much of it on these shores."

Clearly they are - you have no idea of the anti-American discrimination going on in Silicon Valley right now - foreign workers are deliberately keeping Americans out of IT jobs - this is all about presitge for a hungry Asia, saving face, and telling themselves that they are better than Americans. They come here, get TRAINED by us, get paid with OUR VC money, send it all home, take the SKILLS they LEARNED HERE home too, and leave uswith a devastated economy. NASSCOM is BUYING PR articles in our news (via companies like Hill & Knowlton). Wake up we are being manipulated by jealous foreign powers. America is being robbed blind by these people. Read zazona.com

This IS an issue of national security - if we lose our manufacturing and tech, we won't be able to produce defense products that win wars - which is just what our enemies are hoping happens. The gov't DOES need to put a stop to this NOW. Besides, all work visas and green cards violate the Economic Espionage Act anyway. So they are ALL illegal.
Wakjob2
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Wakjob2,
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11/11/2011 | 4:10:53 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Companies ruined or almost ruined by imported Indian labor

Adaptec - Indian CEO Subramanian Sundaresh fired.
AIG (signed outsourcing deal in 2007 in Europe with Accenture Indian frauds, collapsed in 2009)
AirBus (Qantas plane plunged 650 feet injuring passengers when its computer system written by India disengaged the auto-pilot).
Apple - R&D CLOSED in India in 2006.
Australia's National Australia Bank (Outsourced jobs to India in 2007, nationwide ATM and account failure in late 2010).
Bell Labs (Arun Netravalli took over, closed, turned into a shopping mall)
Boeing Dreamliner ES software (written by HCL, banned by FAA)
Bristol-Myers-Squibb (Trade Secrets and documents stolen in U.S. by Indian national guest worker)
Caymas - Startup run by Indian CEO, French director of dev, Chinese tech lead. Closed after 5 years of sucking VC out of America.
Caterpillar misses earnings a mere 4 months after outsourcing to India, Inc.
Circuit City - Outsourced all IT to Indian-run IBM and went bankrupt shortly thereafter.
ComAir crew system run by 100% Indian IT workers caused the 12/25/05 U.S. airport shutdown when they used a short int instead of a long int
Computer Associates - Former CEO Sanjay Kumar, an Indian national, sentenced to 12 years in federal prison for accounting fraud.
Deloitte - 2010 - this Indian-packed consulting company is being sued under RICO fraud charges by Marin Country, California for a failed solution.
Dell - call center (closed in India)
Delta call centers (closed in India)
Fannie Mae - Hired large numbers of Indians, had to be bailed out. Indian logic bomb creator found guilty and sent to prison.
GM - Was booming in 2006, signed $300 million outsourcing deal with Wipro that same year, went bankrupt 3 years later
HP - Got out of the PC hardware business in 2011 and can't compete with Apple's tablets. HP was taken over by Indians and Chinese in 2001. So much for 'Asian' talent!
HSBC ATMs (software taken over by Indians, failed in 2006)
Intel Whitefield processor project (cancelled, Indian staff canned)
JetStar Airways computer failure brings down Christchurch airport on 9/17/11. JetStar is owned by Quantas - which is know to have outsourced to India, Inc.
Lehman (Spectramind software bought by Wipro, ruined, trashed by Indian programmers)
Medicare - Defrauded by Indian national doctor Arun Sharma & wife in the U.S.
Microsoft - Employs over 35,000 H-1Bs. Stock used to be $100. Today it's lucky to be over $25. Not to mention that Vista thing.
MIT Media Lab Asia (canceled)
MyNines - A startup founded and run by Indian national Apar Kothari went belly up after throwing millions of America's VC $ down the drain.
PeopleSoft (Taken over by Indians in 2000, collapsed).
PepsiCo - Slides from #1 to #3 during Indian CEO Indra Nooyi' watch.
Polycom - Former senior executive Sunil Bhalla charged with insider trading.
Qantas - See AirBus above
Quark (Alukah Kamar CEO, fired, lost 60% of its customers to Adobe because Indian-written QuarkExpress 6 was a failure)
Rolls Royce (Sent aircraft engine work to India in 2006, engines delayed for Boeing 787, and failed on at least 2 Quantas planes in 2010, cost Rolls $500m).
SAP - Same as Deloitte above in 2010.
Singapore airlines (IT functions taken over in 2009 by TCS, website trashed in August, 2011)
Skype (Madhu Yarlagadda fired)
State of Indiana $867 million FAILED IBM project, IBM being sued
State of Texas failed IBM project.
Sun Micro (Taken over by Indian and Chinese workers in 2001, collapsed, had to be sold off to Oracle).
UK's NHS outsourced numerous jobs including health records to India in mid-2000 resulting in $26 billion over budget.
Union Bank of California - Cancelled Finacle project run by India's InfoSys in 2011.
United - call center (closed in India)
Victorian Order of Nurses, Canada (Payroll system screwed up by SAP/IBM in mid-2011)
Virgin Atlantic (software written in India caused cloud IT failure)
World Bank (Indian fraudsters BANNED for 3 years because they stole data).

I could post the whole list here but I don't want to crash any servers.
MWEGMAN000
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MWEGMAN000,
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11/11/2011 | 1:24:16 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I worked at one company not on your list, State Farm Insurance, that used offshore contractors at one time. They knew absolutely nothing about insurance and were writing applications that they had no clue about. This company when I left there was having all kinds of performance and system capacity problems. You would not believe the programming trash that went in. COBOL programs doing internal array searches that didn't stop when they found a match. Imagine processing a 900 million record input file with that logic. This was only the tip of the iceberg. If I saw bad offshore code...approved to go in. Management wanted to use this labor so they got just what they deserved....very expensive code with long term ramifications. Now on the opposite end of IT, a company named EPIC from Verona, WI as far as I know does not use offshore labor and they are booming with a stunning successful health care records system. Criminey I met people at SF from offshore that truely absolutely where just here on a Visa for on the job training at the customer's expense. The local university, IL State Universities computer science program was practically gutted when students quit studying CS. Why no wonder. These companies caused this problem. In fact ISU had a programming acceleration track being taught by a group called Info Tech right before the year 2000 that Caterpillar and SF were using for programming labor training. It was a great opportunity for individuals to change their career into IT. As soons as these companies started using offshore labor that was the end of Info Tech. So when I used to hear Larry Ellison and Bill Gates and others whine to Congress about increasing the Visa caps I say to myself they are the cause of the problems as well as these companies. If I was young and was in college there is no way I would go for an IT or even an engineering degree. My chances of having a life time job in those two disciplines...almost none. Why waste your money on those fields of study. You would be better to get a HVAC/R degree and be employed and even start your own business. Trust me the common people or the vast majority have no use for a programmer but someone in the service sector your chances are better to be employed. Dirty work but you can be damn sure you'll be paid for it and not be crapped on by some company where you get paged at 2AM for a problem that some jerk from some other country caused.
rpetrecca462
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rpetrecca462,
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11/11/2011 | 6:32:05 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
You are slobbering on your bedsheet robes and hood.
Wakjob2
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Wakjob2,
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11/11/2011 | 4:11:13 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Every immigration wave to the U.S. since 1900 has led to recession or depression. The late 1998-2000 wave was the biggest in U.S. history - bigger than the one from 1906-1920. Historical facts do not lie. Here is the history of immigration and recession to America since 1900:

1906-1920 - Huge wave from Europe - Great Depression in 1929.

1965 - Ted Kennedy's Immigration Reform Act - Big recession 1973-1981

1990 - H-1B started - recession 1991-1993

Oct. 1998 - H-1B caps raised form 65,000 to 115,000 per year - collapse in 2001.

Apri 2000 - H-1B caps raised from 115,000 per year to 195,000 per year - collapse in 2008.

The fake "recovery" in the mid 2000's was no recovery - just cheap Fed credit making up for Americans losing their jobs.

America was built by Americans. Every buildup leads to immigrant takers who come in when times are good, strip the economy, then leave when times are bad - as they are now.

84% of the current U.S. population was born here. Do you seriously expect us to believe that 84% of the natives live off the work of the other 16% immigrants? Come on, stop being either a liar or delusional. Immigration is a disaster for America.

China and India don't have open borders. Did I mention they are booming.

Free Trade caused WW2 - America in the 1920s sold its scrap steel to Japan and England's Rolls Royce sold aircraft engines and factories to Hitler. We all know how that turned out.
Wakjob2
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Wakjob2,
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11/11/2011 | 4:13:54 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
This "Study" was merely a phone survey, not a real scientific study. Vivek Wadhwa is a paid NASSCOM agent propagandizing American workers with lies coming from a job-hungry India.
Wakjob2
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Wakjob2,
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11/11/2011 | 4:29:15 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
If you want to see just how serious foreign workers are about keeping Americans out of IT jobs, look no further than the following internal email from Sun. Note the names of the 2 email groups this was sent to. No takeover going on there:

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: Sr. Electrical Engineer Position available @ Oplink

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:40:35 -0700 (PDT)

From: Julie Koo

Reply-To: Julie Koo Julie.Koo@Sun.COM

------------- Begin Forwarded Message -------------

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:43:52 -0700
From: Sabrina Chan
Subject: Sr. Electrical Engineer Position available @ Oplink
To: chinatown2000@sun.com, indians_ca@sun.com
MIME-version: 1.0 X-Accept-Language: en
Original-recipient: rfc822;chinatown2000@sun.com

Hi, The company my friend works at is currently looking for a Senior Electrical Engineer. If you know any qualified applicants, please have them send their resume directly to: trinal@oplink.com. Attached below is a copy of the job description. Oplink is a telecommunications company.

ThanksG«•
Wakjob2
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Wakjob2,
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11/11/2011 | 4:30:40 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Want evidence? Here is a sanitized version of an email from an imported Indian worker at Collabera openly admitting they are here to "take everything that was yours". How much more evidence do you need?

From: "Rajesh Kumar Ramachandran
G«ŅSubject: Listen to me A******!!G«Ņ
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:49:20 -0700 (PDT)

"Now listen carefully to me a******.. dont just bark around in the corner like a rabies stricken stray dog about your pathetic views about politics and jobs. If your insecure about your skills and abilities thats your f****** problem not Indians or any other politicians.. Well you want me to provoke you well then hear this, we are gonna take all your jobs away.. we gonna make sure that you dont even have money to buy s*** and eat, we gonna take evrything thatwas yours.. we gonna drape the Statue of Liberty with a saree (you dont know wahta saree iis, well its a dress which Indian women wear).. now get your f****** stinking face out of here A******!!!!!"
TTX000
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TTX000,
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11/11/2011 | 5:41:24 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
There are over 2 million H-1B programmers in the US. They are being paid around 60K each, let's assume--in some cases more. So that's 120 billion in salaries that could go to US born programmers.

Now they founded companies generating 52 billion. But not all of that goes to programmers. Probably only 25 billion does.

Then, many of these companies are government contractors benefiting from Section 8(a) minority contracts that Indians can get, but whites can not. These government contracts subtract, rather than adding to the opportunities that white and asian programmers have; we pay the taxes, can't get the contracts. So that 25 billion can be reduced to 15 billion since I'm not going to count government contracts.

OK we gave up 120 billion and got 15 billion in return.

Now, as to the number of employees--those businesses employ 450,000. But we gave up 2 million jobs to get them. Once again, I fail to see a net benefit.

H-1B has cost America jobs. Whenever we reduce the quota, overseas outsources whine that they'll lose money.

Isn't that the desired effect? Don't we want the outsourcers to lose money?

Whatever the outsourcers ask for we should do the exact opposite. We currently have government programs that fund Indians education in technology. Why? Don't we want them to be dumber than us?

We're not playing to win.
hmg0409
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hmg0409,
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11/11/2011 | 10:31:30 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Figures don't lie... but they don't necessarily indicate the truth. The real answer is not an either - or, it is actually both. Many thosands of U.S. citizens have been displaced by so-called "temporary" foreign workers. That is a known fact. Dan Rather has documented this situation in recent HD Net TV shows.

Samsushah
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Samsushah,
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11/11/2011 | 12:09:42 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Is this a joke? The author seems to be too far from the reality. Two points.
1. Big corps now mostly hire H1-Bs. They are cheap and have no work life balance. It is easier to find them as well. So companies don't want to work extra hard. I have work for top US software company and that's what I see. Are they creating jobs? They are taking jobs.
2. All the people I used to know in India 25 years ago, have their kids come to colleges here in the US and stay. Almost all of them! Who is letting them in? They also have no problem getting a job after graduation. In fact, colleges like Columbia has programs to place them.

I'm an Indian-American and a US citizen who strongly appose H1-B and believe in US jobs.
I recently joined "Americans against H1-B and outsourcing" group on facebook and encourage others to do the same to have a single voice.
Samsushah
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Samsushah,
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11/11/2011 | 12:16:08 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
One thing that bothers me the most is why aren't we protesting against H1-bs? United we win. We should all write to our senators. It's just that there is no coordinated effort. I want the senate to pass the bill that puts an end to H1-b period.

Who would protest with me on Wall Street or even join the "Occupy Wallstreet" with "No H1-b" banner?
MWEGMAN000
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MWEGMAN000,
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11/11/2011 | 1:37:11 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Sorry to say writing to your Congressman would be a worthless attempt. They are the problem and need to be replaced. It's called the grass roots American stimulus package. I've often said people should be required to vote just the same as serving on jury duty.
walterbyrd
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walterbyrd,
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11/11/2011 | 3:19:05 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Unless we organize, and raise some money, then our case is hopeless. Even a small organization, like NumbersUSA can actually make a difference.
YMOM100
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YMOM100,
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11/11/2011 | 12:32:40 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
One reason why people want to seal the borders is that they never learned in school that protectionism just doesn't work. Get the folks to come here, do the work and pay the taxes. The same people who scream foul about this are also the same people who claim they'd give their lives for free enterprise and they loathe government regulation. So, there you go, free enterprise in the job market. Someone comes along that can do your job for less money means you are out, unless you do it for the same lower salary or even less.
Ye can't have your cake and eat it, too.
MWEGMAN000
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MWEGMAN000,
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11/11/2011 | 1:32:28 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Interesting protectionism comment. Let's talk protectionism. Let me try to go to India and get an IT job. Do you think that would happen. I don't think so. The U.S. had a wonderful success rate before the flood gates were opened to let people into this country for your so called free enterprise job market. So when India and China and other countries want to compete on the same ground and not be engaged in protectionism only then can you say there is a free enterprise job market. You need to get an education.
stcloudG
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stcloudG,
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11/11/2011 | 4:22:12 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Seriously, we did have higher growth before free trade took over if you look decade to decade. So called free trade anyway, 25% average tarriff going into China, 2% coming out. China had a stimulus package almost identical in size to ours with a buy Chinese provision, every dollar spent had to go to a Chinese company, that is protectionism. Look at Walmarts struggle to get a single Walmart into India, which as it turns out isn't technically a Walmart anyway. Is it really free trade if we are the only ones participating?
YMOM100
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YMOM100,
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11/16/2011 | 12:58:23 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
The difference is that the Chinese have tons of cash and the US doesn't. So why do you think is calling the shots in any form of trade negotiation. The US lost out on that due to reckless administrations wasting trillions on wars rather than on investing into the country's future.
Aside from that, there is plenty of opposition to Wal-Marts all over the place, not just in China.
YMOM100
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YMOM100,
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11/16/2011 | 12:55:22 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Protectionism is bad, because it protects companies that are not competitive and make mediocre product, because they are guaranteed to make sales. Limiting or even eliminating competition is never a good idea. Besides that, there are plenty of products and services the US can hardly do without and that are not made here in sufficient supplies, namely oil and rare earth metals. Protectionism isn't unilateral and will always be met with retaliation, means other countries cut the US off from important supplies. How is that supposed to be better for the US economy?
The only way to compete is on quality, price, or even better on ingenuity. Same applies to the workforce. Either match the cheap labor or be so excellent that you are worth the money.
Also, right now Indian companies ARE hiring US workers, mainly expatriates, but also others who have special skills that the run of the mill engineers in India do not have. It is coined to be the 'reverse brain drain'.
hoapres
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hoapres,
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11/16/2011 | 1:18:35 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
If you can build your product cheaper in another country then you do it outside the US and don't bring foreign workers to the US in the first place.

YMOM100
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YMOM100,
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11/18/2011 | 6:10:31 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
But if all you need is cheap labor, it makes sense to bring them here. If the US is the main market and services need to be rendered, then having folks sit somewhere overseas doesn't help. And you don't have to deal with foreign governments, customs, etc.
walterbyrd
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walterbyrd,
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11/11/2011 | 3:17:10 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
When India allowed a few Chinese visa workers into India, The Indian workers were out protesting in the streets. India complaining about protectionism is like Al Quaeda complaining about terrorism. India has long been known as one of the most protectionist economies on earth, and they are the first to complain about other countries protectionism.

And please cite your source for your dubious statement that "protectionism does not work."

IMO: every country has a right, and a responsibility to protect the protect the interests of it's people.
walterbyrd
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walterbyrd,
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11/11/2011 | 3:07:26 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
This so called "research" is just corporate propaganda. In 2008 Wadhwa argued exactly the opposite of what he is saying now. The pro-H1B "research" is also always paid for by US and Indian corporations.
walterbyrd
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walterbyrd,
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11/11/2011 | 3:10:17 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Let's stop confusing workers here on a temporary visa, with true immigrants. It's not the same thing at all.
stcloudG
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stcloudG,
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11/11/2011 | 4:02:21 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I clicked on this story hoping for myth busting, not even close, "immigrant-founded companies generated $52 billion in revenue and employed 450,000 people in 2005". That statement leaves much to be desired in terms of myth busting. This is a small amount give our GDP, how much is lost by American workers due to oursourcing and Visas? Its the Sarah Palin arguement that 1 in five jobs is created in the trade sector. Well if we outsource 50 jobs to create that one trade job is that not a loss?
The author seems to be turned off by people here thinking that these jobs belong to US workers, I guess we should just wait around until we get to a point where US wages are as low as they are in other countries. I'm sure the super wealthy can support OUR economy on their own.
walterbyrd
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walterbyrd,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 4:08:20 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Watch the Dan Rather report "No Thanks For Everything" if you want to know the truth of the situation.

http://blip.tv/hdnet-news-and-...
TreeInMyCube
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TreeInMyCube,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 4:58:58 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Apples and Oranges, Rob. I'm surprised that you conflated two similar, but distinct, issues.

Yes, I believe that a number of tech companies *founded* between 1995 and 2005 were indeed founded by immigrants. A nice statistic to know, but not relevant to offshoring or outsourcing.

The key pain point -- and the one which sometimes keeps me up at night -- is the migration of tech jobs in *existing* companies, especially large, Fortune 500 companies, out of the USA. There are very few large, established companies which were founded between 1995 and 2005; most of them were founded much earlier in the 20th century. In my world, the H1-B issue is peripheral -- my company isn't hiring anybody, H1-B or US citizen. I am worried about the abuses, and I agree with you that companies which violate/abuse the program should be investigated or penalized.

The much bigger threat to IT jobs in the USA is offshoring and outsourcing. As several of the other commenters wrote, bean counter decision making has serious consequences for quality of work. My employer has also seen the difference in projects managed across the globe, vs, those carried out in the same timezone. People have only begun to recognize the cost multipliers that FreeThinker42 mentioned.
june987
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june987,
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11/11/2011 | 5:44:13 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
KoolHarry
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KoolHarry,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 5:46:01 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
The whole IT thing like other things is controlled by big companies. Basically nowadays they put up new ideas in the air and get some newbie in India to get familiar with the software and implement it for some big company in India. That learning experience becomes the springboard to get them here and be shown as leaders of the new big wave on the horizon. This is the nexus between big business in USA and big business in India. The big thing with money nowadays is new ideas. Invest in new ideas. Get implementors from India to do prototypes. Make the whole world want to do the same thing. Cycle to other areas.
ANON1236182724088
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ANON1236182724088,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 5:51:55 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
InformationWeek should be able to outsource to India for a VP and Editor in Chief and save quite a bit of money. Anybody can write this stuff.
stcloudG
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stcloudG,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 7:15:07 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Indeed they should, 450,000 immigrant-founded company jobs in this country. He should get his share of the 52 billion dollars. I've been on the management outsourcing bandwagon for quite a while, think of how cheap our good and services could be if we could just get rid of those wasteful salaries.
rpetrecca462
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rpetrecca462,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 6:07:53 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Wow! The level of incoherence and grammatical mistakes in this post is incredible. If you resume comes to me looking anything like this, it immediately goes in the waste bin.
ledelman30301
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ledelman30301,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 8:46:00 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
It appears that unsurprisingly political ideology have once again crept into this topic. Sealing the border has to do with illegal immigration and protecting the country from smuggling, drugs and violence. It has little to do with legal immigration policy as it relates to H-1B visas.

As far as these studies and research are concerned, I generally do not believe much of what I read. More often than not people have a hidden political agenda that they are trying hide under the disguise helping business or hard working immigrants.
Certifiable
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Certifiable,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/11/2011 | 10:18:25 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
"Critics of this line of reasoning will point to the abuses: mainly, the H-1B and other visa holders brought in to do mid-level engineering and other work that could be done by U.S. nationals. But the answer is for government visa issuers to crack down on the abusers, not to end the visa program and shut down immigration of high-skill workers."

So Rob Preston agrees that the US Govt. should crack down (apply pressure) on H-1B abuse and that logically this is a proper role best left to "... government bureaucrats". I agree with this view since it is a federal function to regulate all immigration policy.

In the next paragraph:
"What about those U.S. companies moving IT and other jobs offshore by the boatload while accepting U.S. government bailout funds? In this regard, if the Occupy Wall Street climate prompts U.S. businesses and consumers to skew their buying toward companies dedicated to keeping jobs in this country, that's their prerogative. But let individual buyers decide whether to apply that pressure. Don't cede that decision to government bureaucrats."

Now Rob Preston is against "... government bureaucrats" applying any pressure on companies saved by US TAXPAYER BAILOUTS, but still "moving IT and other jobs offshore by the boatload ...". There are so many logical disconnects here that I am forced to clarify.

If any US company accepted US taxpayer money to get bailed out (saved), then it is the federal government's right to intervene:

1) On the part of those very same taxpayers as their duly elected and legal representatives.

2) To prevent the use of federal monies in furtherance of decimating the federal tax base, which reduces federal income. Firing American workers en masse means fewer taxpayers and more unemployment compensation!

3) To maximize the local and national economic force that such govt. spending is intended to stimulate. Sending jobs overseas does not qualify!

4) On corporate strategy as a condition for accepting a federal bailout. Just ask GM and Chrysler about this!

5) Just as any other major creditor or stockholder does in the private marketplace. When Uncle Sam bails out any company, he gets a seat on the Board of Directors, if not at the head!

6) Because it stinks to high heaven when free marketers and capitalists have no problem with maximizing private profit, but then socialize the losses of their badly managed risk when bailed out by the very same federal govt. they so love to excoriate!

I will not depend on individual buyers to skew their buying towards those companies dedicated to keeping jobs in the US because:

1) Buyers decide on PRICE, not where it was made or serviced. Rob Preston knows this, and that a feel good "Made in the USA" sentiment has little chance of prevailing.

2) Buyers know little about any particular US company's hiring practices or composition. But if companies had to report "Truth in Hiring" on every product or service label, much like food/agricultural goods have to list their ingredients in an FDA mandated way:

Company XYZ Labor Composition:
US citizens - 40%
US based H-1B - 30%
Offshore - 30%

Then buyers would be able to make a more informed choice and not leave it up to corporate public relations efforts.

3) Companies have an outsize influence through congressional lobbying. They will lie, distort and cheat their way out of truthfully reporting what their real hiring practices are because their competition, both in the US and globally, are doing it too. They will obfuscate to great lengths because cheap offshore labor translates to big profits and not having to pay all of those pesky Social Security and unemployment taxes. So I don't have much hope for movements like Occupy Wall Street because "money talks and BS walks".

Rob, you have to really think hard about your free market sentiment as pertains the massive and wholesale offshoring of IT labor because it serves as a template for so many other industries that have and will go extinct like the Dodo bird. All the talk about improving education doesn't mean a damn thing if one must accumulate over $100K in student debt to get the degree that might get the job that probably will go to cheaper offshore labor that doesn't have as much debt or cost of living. And all the time, our short sighted, stupid US companies are destroying their customer base when they fire them from their jobs to cut costs. Is this really competition or is it more like a wholesale slaughter of the middle class?

I understand about competition, but there are so many unintended consequences of corporate short term profit making strategy that it reminds me of the debate among the assembled experts at the round table in the movie "Jurassic Park". When the park's creator and lawyer were all excited about the financial possibilities of their living dinosaurs, they were queried:

How can we know how the dinos will react to this new and different world?
You got so excited about actually creating dinos that you never asked if you should!
twins.fan
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twins.fan,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/12/2011 | 12:44:17 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
First, things first. Vivek Wadhwa is a fraud. That is another subject. Perhaps we can discuss that later.

For over two decades, corporate America has been persuading the corporate politicians to get the corporate media to perpetuate this fraud.

Immigration does not create jobs. It is that simple. The H1B visa does not import highly skilled workers. Corporate America uses the H1B visa to import REPLACEMENT WORKERS. The data is there for anyone to review. Just download the date from the Department of Labor website. It is plain and simple.

In fact just look at the report from the GAO during the past year. The GAO reports that fewer than 7% of the workers receiving H1B visas are compensated at rates customary for highly skilled workers. LESS THAN SEVEN PERCENT!!! The H1B visa is used to import replacement workers, not highly skilled workers.

Don't listen to the Wadhwa lies. He is in the engineered research business. He creates fake studies to come to a predetermined conclusion. Unfortunately, every H1B visa destroys the job and career of one US citizen. Millions of US STEM workers have had their careers ruined by H1B visas. And over a hundred thousand careers of US STEM workers are destroyed every year.
jleone940
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jleone940,
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11/12/2011 | 1:06:42 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
H-1b, L-1, B-1 are non-immigrant Visas. This basically means people who take these Visa are not here (on-principal) to stay. While some U.S. companies do use these visa directly, a huge portion of these Visas are given to Offshore Outsourcing companies and Head-hunter agencies. In affect, many of the H-1b and L-1 visas used in this country are used by people whose sole purpose is to remove jobs and technology from the United States.

It is well known that companies such as InfoSys, have a U.S. engineering workforce that is 90% from India. InfoSys, uses visas, without even trying to hire locally. Microsoft on the other hand, doesn't even try, and is able to get their U.S. engineering workforce at above 50% local hire. InfoSys (and most of the other outsourcing companies, are not even trying to hire local candidates). Don't believe me, just read the now public testimony of Jay Palmer. In his testimony, Jay details how InfoSys places people at customer sites, on a B-1 visa (basically a visitor visa), in order to do work at the U.S. customer site (at 3rd world wages).

Thus avoiding U.S. payroll, medicare, and Social Security Tax. Thus avoiding having to pay minimum wage (which exceed average engineering pay in India). Thus avoid having to pay for the excellent protection and infrastructure afforded by the United States and its tax-paying citizens.

You know, each year I must attest on my taxes that what I am signing for is true, under penalty of perjury. The U.S. visa programs, are government programs, paid for at U.S. taxpayer expense. There is no reason, that just like any other welfare recipient, businesses be asked to attest that they have made a good faith effort to hire a local U.S. candidate (anyone who has the right to work in the United States, citizen or not-yet citizen). That would at least curb the addiction that these companies have to completely ridiculous and discrimanatory hiring practices.

And not considering hiring a person based upon their origin (because they happen to be U.S. citizens) IS DISCRIMINATION, pure and simple, and no way can it be allowed to continue.
braya
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braya,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/12/2011 | 1:47:50 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Simply put, IT has no language barrier and America wants to go global but not be globalized. Does anybody here have the numbers for supply and demand for IT professionals and how many Americans have formally studied for IT? I bet the supply is lower than the demand.

When the U.S. was playing with other people's money through American branding using cheap labor and projecting virtual profits in Wall Street, most Americans wanted to be in business, finance, banking etc. easy work, high profits. Their insatiable greed fueled the housing fiasco.

American IT professionals are just whining about unemployment but during the heydays of the American economy, majority of Americans were not complaining about offshoring/outsourcing because services were cheap and life was good.

Let's go back to the real reason how the American economy is what it is now today and how it impacted unemployment. It is not the foreign IT talents that are taking the jobs away from American IT professionals, it is character and attitude towards professionalism in the industry as a whole. With that being said, this issue is not about cheap exploitable labor from 3rd world countries replacing American IT jobs.

FYI, the visa cap wasn't reached for the last 2 years because most American companies were not hiring. Unlike before, the cap is reached 24 hours after the filing deadline in April. Now, what does that tell us? Again, that foreign IT talents with specialty occupation through H-1B is not the problem.

On the larger scheme of things, who is controlling the other end of the string? You guessed it Washington, Inc. which brings us back to lower capital, higher margins for American consumers. We whine about how crappy Asian systems/technology/code but American IT pros are not the best in the world either. I just wish I could say the same for the technology in the auto industry. Why drive a Ford when a Honda is much better in all aspects. A Toyota Corolla can outlast a Chevy Lumina. Even the Nissan Skyline is a much better muscle car. Who has crappy technology now?! So you see, it just all about the whining folks, pure and simple! ..and sadly, we are known for that in the global arena.

http://www.informationweek.com... ---> Bill Gates faking shortage? Why in the heck would he hire mediocre programmers from Asia? I would understand if he was selling Panda dolls.

http://www.informationweek.com... ---> Michael Bloomberg protecting IT capitalists? Why would this guy commit political suicide? It just doesn't make sense!

Alibis.. Whining.. Excuses..
hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/12/2011 | 4:28:13 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
>> Simply put, IT has no language barrier and America wants to go global but not be globalized. <<

To a limited extent, I agree with you. Why not just export IT to cheaper localities. IT for the most part just labor and if it can be done cheaper overseas then simply don't do it in the US.

>> Does anybody here have the numbers for supply and demand for IT professionals and how many Americans have formally studied for IT? I bet the supply is lower than the demand. <<

You would lose that bet as young Americans with IT degrees can't find jobs.

>> It is not the foreign IT talents that are taking the jobs away from American IT professionals, <<

Of course it is.

>> Bill Gates faking shortage? <<

He sure is.

We might have a shortage of people willing to work for minimum wage.

>> Alibis.. Whining.. Excuses.. <<

Well too bad.

Companies are not entitled to the best qualified worker in the world but only the most qualified American to do the job. If the American workforce is not good enough then a simple solution exists being doing the work overseas and simply send the product to the US.

Ray921
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Ray921,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/12/2011 | 6:51:00 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Braya wrote: "FYI, the visa cap wasn't reached for the last 2 years because most American companies were not hiring. Unlike before, the cap is reached 24 hours after the filing deadline in April. Now, what does that tell us? "

It tells me you're a blowhard who cites as fact whatever you need to make your argument sound plausible.

FY2012 H-1B Cap Count (Updated 11/07/11) [source:AILA InfoNet Doc. No. 11040864
(posted Nov. 7, 2011)]:

"As of November 2, 2011, approximately 50,800 H-1B cap-subject petitions were receipted. Additionally, USCIS has receipted 20,000 H-1B petitions for aliens with advanced degrees. "

Thus, employers had seven months to apply for H-1B visas under the 20,000 exemption for advanced degrees for FY2012 (April 1, 2011 - October 21, 2011).

Since H-1B was created in 1990, the H-1B visa cap was reached only once on the day after the opening date of filing in April for the next fiscal year. That was FY2008, when filing opened April 2, 2007, and closed April 3, 2007. H-1B applications for FY2009 were closed at the end of the first week (April 1-7, 2008).

FY cap date for 65,000 cap date for exempt 20,000 w/ US advanced degrees

2010 21-Dec-2009 30-Oct-2009
2011 26-Jan-2011 22-Dec-2010
2012 late Dec 2011? 21-Oct-2011

Phil11
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Phil11,
User Rank: Apprentice
12/3/2011 | 8:53:36 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I do not care for better Honda and Better Toyota. French buy Pequot, complain about it and are much better-off overall and enjoy better quality of life. I stick to my Chevy for another 10 years!
GJAMES2302
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GJAMES2302,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/12/2011 | 1:40:26 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I knew Mr. Wadhwa back in his Seer Technologies days (mid-1990s). He was deeply involved in the whole AD/Cycle IBM debacle. He was a snake oil salesman back then and he's still one now. I'm gratified to see people finally outing him for what he is.
SouthRoad
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SouthRoad,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/12/2011 | 8:00:09 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
"research estimates that those immigrant-founded companies generated $52 billion in revenue and employed 450,000 people in 2005".

Does this mean that the immigrant-founded companies hired 450,000 more people also on H1-B visa's and generated $52 billion in revenue to send overseas? These number mean absolutely nothing. Creating new jobs in this country and filling them with more foreigners is not the same as "creating jobs". Statistics lie, and liars make statistics.
jleone940
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jleone940,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/12/2011 | 8:08:08 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Cheap labor is causing software to become more labor-intensive and moving away from capital-intensive. I've noticed this in several locations, and it is disturbing. It is actually a step backward in terms of value-per-man-hour. For example many startups, even big companies, prefer to use free software tools, some of which are better or rival there for-pay competition, but the majority of which are actually more labor intensive (although often produce the same result).

For example why buy an expensive ETL tool, for say 40k (and hire one programmer/IT guy to run it), when you can hire 3 programmer in India to do the same thing in java (probably at a siginificant discount, in the short-run)?

This is important, because software is already a very labor intensive field. Employers need a motivation to encourage greater productivity through automation, cheap labor is a dis-insentive for the improvement of the human condition.

Working hard is for posers, working smart and efficiently is the future (in software or any other industry).

docroger
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docroger,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/13/2011 | 2:53:09 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Statistically - we are all immigrants - Myself - I am second generation American so if I start a company will it be "immigrant founded" - so that study cannot hold water. Problem is BIG Business wants profit. The real answer is that if they want to lift the cap - let them - but set a wage cap. If a DBA makes 80,000 US a year - they pay the imported labor the same - not the recruiter - the employee. This will level the playing field. Big business has no soul nor sense of responsibility, they cannot be depended on to do anything ethical - just look at the financial crisis. If we want immigrant founders - then do what other countries do with investors - bring 500,000 dollars, a business plan and proof of commitment - and we will receive you with open arms. I work overseas - when the average income is only 7,000 a year - the promise of 45,000 is a real motivator. In US terms it would be the same as offering a person making 45,000 per year - 290,000 per year. I do not know about most people - but I suspect we would lie, cheat and steal for an opportunity like that - so what do you think these people are doing (with the help of the recruiters) - this is first hand knowledge folks.
hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/13/2011 | 6:11:54 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Forget the wage cap idea.

What is needed is a complete freeze on visas with the exception of true geniuses. If we have a true labor shortage then wages go up to encourage young Americans to enter the field.

If you have a wage cap allowing for unlimited number of immigrants then salaries will never go up

Oh wait, we have that right now with H1B, L1, B1 and a plethora of visa programs.
OTURQ
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OTURQ,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/13/2011 | 10:56:33 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
There is a lot of misinformation floating around, so I will try to clarify at least some of it. I had H1B for 6 years, and now am a GC holder. For one, in order to get H1B, you need to demonstrate that there is no other qualified American that applies for the job, and that you are are making at least the average if not more then the average anyone with your qualifications make in your region. That ensures there are no jobs being taken away from any American, and that you are not cheap labor.
hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/14/2011 | 3:39:27 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
>> For one, in order to get H1B, you need to demonstrate that there is no other qualified American that applies for the job, <<

No you don't.

It's perfectly legal to get an H1B to replace an American worker.

>> and that you are are making at least the average if not more then the average anyone with your qualifications make in your region. <<

Got that wrong.

You have to pay a "prevailing wage" which is lower than the typical salayr.

>> That ensures there are no jobs being taken away from any American, and that you are not cheap labor. <<

Got that wrong.
docroger
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docroger,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/14/2011 | 2:22:29 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
I do understand the concepts of the H1-B - when I worked in the US I hired a few. It was not so difficult - but it seems that the real issues is how do you stop the body-shoppers. How can an Indian (for example) company in the US bring in 1000 workers and claim that the jobs cannot be provided by Americans. It is the body shoppers that are flooding the markets - not individuals. I have some "friends" that worked for body shoppers - they were billed out at 60K but the workers were paid only 30K (nice profit margin in any business). And all the expenses were paid by the individual - including the plane ticket to the US. Seems that the government is not keeping pace with the monitoring of these practices. Most companies these days will not do the H1-B themselves (the law says that the worker does not have to actually work for the employer that obtains the visa - and I know a few H1-Bs that have used this to get in the door - and never showed up at the company that processed the visa). But if a recruiting firm will do this for them - then why bother - let someone else handle the risk. Americans tend to believe that the rest of the world is like the US - it is definitely not - cultural norms are very different in the third world and these norms do not change just by coming to the US.
RobPreston
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RobPreston,
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11/14/2011 | 5:46:49 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Folks, thanks for the lively discussion. It has been very instructive. Just one point of clarification for those saying I'm mixing issues: My column wasn't a commentary on H-1B visas. I mentioned work visas only in the context of what a commenter said on another column, and I mentioned that if employers are abusing the H1-B visa program, then they need to be held accountable. Others (not me) have made this a discussion centered on work visas. I'm a bigger fan of (legal) immigration, of allowing the best and brightest to have a positive impact on this country. My column was NOT a treatise on the benefits of cheap labor and offshoring.
hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/14/2011 | 6:09:08 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
How many "best and brightest" people exist ??

My contention is that we are talking of not more than a couple of thousands individuals per year.

You really don't have that many true geniuses. No reasonable person would object to bringing in an Einstein, Pauling, Turing, Tovalds, etc. but that is not very many people.

Come on now.

Let's get real.

65,000 H1Bs + another 20,000 for MS degree holders per year under the present economic situation is ridiculous.

Another problem with people (not picking on Mr. Preston) writing "this stuff" is that in the vast majority of cases have not "been in the trench"

Those of us that have "been in the trench" have seen or experienced the H1B insourcing visa. H1Bs are brought in to learn the skills to take the jobs back to their own countries.

Or as one proponent of offshoring said in so many words :

Americans as a condition of receiving their severance proudly training their Indian H1B replacements to improve corporate profits by exporting jobs.

The above happend at BofA in 2002. BofA shut down their Concord, CA operations resulting in the Ken Flanagan suicide and the "survivors" (pun not somewhat intended) had to listen to Tata Consulting Services spiels about the benefiting of offshoring.

You need to use some common sense. The vast majority of IT can be and will be offshored. If you can get someone in the third world to do your job for 1/3 the cost then the job is going overseas. While no one wants to see American jobs going overseas, it is far preferable for work to go overseas than to bring in lower cost foreign labor to the US. In both scenarios, the American doesn't get the job.
ANON1238649796787
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ANON1238649796787,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/14/2011 | 7:32:16 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Mr. Rob Preston has underestimated the magnitude of Visa abuse. He is right that neither the visa program not immigration should end. If he were to analyze each and every outsourcing transaction, he will be aware that misuse and abuse is rampant. Not many people will object to bringing in additional resources or talent on broad. It generates a great deal of grief and anger when jobs are here in this country but the people or replaced.
hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/14/2011 | 7:50:12 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
>> He is right that neither the visa program not immigration should end. <<

Given the extremely dismal economic conditions only true geniuses should be allowed to come to the US.

>> Not many people will object to bringing in additional resources or talent on broad. <<

Simple

Go out and hire an American

If you can't find someone at the salary you are willing to pay then either raise the salary or don't do the job.

IT for the most part is just labor. If I can't find someone to flip a burger for $8 an hour then I raise the salary of the burger flipper or the burger doesn't get flipped. In the booming North Dakota oil fields Carl Junior burger flippers are paid $15 an hour.
braya
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braya,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/27/2011 | 1:30:29 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Burger flipping you say? Enter illegal immigrants, which is a far worse problem than the H-1B program. Don't you agree? :)
Phil11
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Phil11,
User Rank: Apprentice
12/3/2011 | 6:04:42 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
A CEO for a well known company decided to do G«£killingG«• in a quarter. So she / he fires X number of experienced engineers doing a software feasibility study and architecture in exchange for 2X of inexperienced H1-b engineers from India to do the flashy prototype. A few months later the CEO leaves the company with a G«£benefitsG«• package satisfying all of his needs for the rest of his life. The project turns out to be a total fiasco and the department is dissolved. Anyone who has spent in a high tech industry a few years can bring a couple of scenarios like this.

The worst is when the H1-b visa beneficiaries after say 10 year of being G«£guestsG«• of this country get in a position of management. With a few exceptions, the managers from China quickly develop the management style of their homeland which is communistic-style passion for obedience and a curbing innovation.

The managers with the roots in India quickly establish feudal-like families of connections destroying normal healthy competition. When the family extends to entire Indian village the taxpayers furnish the bills for social and medical services.

Steve Jobs was U.S born and educated (to whatever level he needed the formal education) engineer. On many occasions he made it clear that there was very little he owed to his foreign born father.

As an immigrant-engineer from Europe I feel sorry for (not so many anymore) American born engineers who work in G«£theirG«• country for the engineering companies where the English language is hardly spoken.

The overpopulation of engineers from India and China clearly destroyed the engineering profession in the United States. The most creative work in the area of software technology is done currently in Europe, where the destructive results of guests immigration are not yet as visible.
ryancy
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ryancy,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/14/2011 | 9:08:19 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
It is very funny how people are always trying to cite some old study about how foreigners are creating jobs in America as opposed to taking them. It doesn't matter how much math and science Americans study, they will never be able to compete with a foreigner working for a fraction of the cost. I've been in the IT industry for over 20 years and have seen the landscape change, not necessarily for the better. Early outsourcing proponents used to say that low skill jobs would be outsourced, those people would advanced and purchase more goods and services. These purchases were supposed to translate into more jobs (back-office) in America. I haven't really noticed a change. Businesses just continued to outsource everything. One day, businesses will realize that building in cheap countries and selling in America is a defective business model, especially when Americans are being put out of work. In other words, people without jobs can't buy anything!

Now don't take my words as being against all outsourcing. I'm in the IT industry but do understand Economics. However, it has to be done fairly. America seems to have open markets for everything but other countries do not reciprocate accordingly. I won't go into the argument but basically, something has to be done to account for the difference in labor rates and quality of life differences between countries trading with each other. The other option is to continue letting the American standard of life decline to third world status and let the people occupy all the streets.
hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/15/2011 | 1:23:34 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
>> One day, businesses will realize that building in cheap countries and selling in America is a defective business model, especially when Americans are being put out of work. In other words, people without jobs can't buy anything! <<

I am a firm believer that Americans should start living like North Koreans. For those that are out of work then you may not have a choice. If you have a decent job that can be offshored then one needs to plan for the worse case scenario of being laid off and not being able to find another decent job.

>> The other option is to continue letting the American standard of life decline to third world status and let the people occupy all the streets. <<

That is a problem for the next quarter. The CEO is only concerned for this quarter about increasing profits by reducing labor costs. The new CEO who takes over with the reduced sales due to inability to sell the companies product due to that no one is working anymore at decent jobs in America can solve that problem.
braya
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braya,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/27/2011 | 1:27:46 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
That was what Corporate America wanted at that time and now that they are feeling the backlash, people are whining.
Oneshot007
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Oneshot007,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/17/2011 | 11:29:12 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Perhaps some of what you reported could be true. BUT....many companies created here in the US are former H-1b's who gained their citizenship and started IT consulting companies. And guess what?? There are over 300 hundred companies who partner with my company and send me all of their available consultants - who you say ? - Guess What again... are 99% H-1b's ! I've be in IT since the late 70's and I know more about the industry than you! The former H-1b's who are now US citizens and have move up in management now choose H-1b's over US citizens. Many of the H-1B companies are presenting US citizen resumes to their clients and and jacking up the rates without the US citizen knowing and presenting h-1b/green card rates at the client desired rate minus several dollars. I have already caught several of these companies in these practices including discrimination. The program has it's place - BUT THE PROGRAM IS TO NEVER REPLACE A QUALIFIED US CITIZEN WITH AN H1-B - PERIOD!!!!!!!!! WHY don't you log in to some India H-1B blog sites like I have done and screen captured what they are saying - like ' We own the US IT industry'.....and you know what - if they don't they're might close. I like my friends that I have worked with who are from India. Many are also hard working US citizens. No problem with that at all. But we have millions of natural born citizens who spent thousands to go to college but out of work - 450,000 are IT workers. There are currently 2 million H-1B's here for 6-years minimum. (go to http://www.uscis.gov for the facts) DO THE MATH !! We use to let in 250,000 plus per year. We're down to 65,000 plus 20,000 Master h1-b's. We're losing our homes, our families and our minds. KNOW WHAT YOU ARE WRITING BEFORE YOU publish. GET AN ACTUAL PULSE ON THE IT COMMUNITY ! p.s. I am collecting the evidence and will provide to EEO and necessary Inspector General offices.
And if you would like to go undercover to see these practices firsthand so you can write the truth - please let me know.
hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/18/2011 | 4:24:19 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
My major problem with bloggers is that they often don't investigate the facts but merely rebroadcast somebody else. The concept of checking the validity of Wadwha's study instead of just quoting it assuming that it is factually accurate doesn't even come to thought.

To be fair, bloggers are not acting like a journalist. Assuming that true journalism exists any more with a journalist going around pounding the pavement then one often finds that what you were told is not factually accurate.

The end result is you get statements such as

>> Clearly, foreign nationals aren't just "taking" U.S. jobs; they and their offspring are producing more than their fair share of innovations and economic opportunity, much of it on these shores. <<

which is hardly "Clearly" at all.

braya
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braya,
User Rank: Apprentice
11/27/2011 | 1:02:25 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
All is fair in love and in war. In this case, Trade Wars. The H-1B program as whimsically projected by some people here is capped at only 65,000 a year.

I think we all know why America is on its knees right now, it is a backlash of greed and exploitation.

If you truly believe that "you've got (IT) talent", innovate, move on, prove your niche and stop bitching about H-1B. In any issue America just wants to exploit but not exploited but when we are, we bitch to hell about everything and how America was so great as it was once were. Sounds familiar?

People are whining because apparently they cannot move on because they really don't have the talent. Do you bigshots really think that U.S. Companies will settle and risk ruining their business because of mediocre talent, foreign talent that is? Logic dictates that they won't.

All whiners are scared individuals.
Phil11
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Phil11,
User Rank: Apprentice
12/3/2011 | 9:21:32 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
My Indian manager stated in public G«£I feel sorry for those Americans, as I do not see any future for them ". Sure he managed to convert his H1-b visa to GC and now enjoys the U.S. salaries. His technical skills and work attitude are just horrible. Yet he admitted that it takes at least twice as long to do any work in India as in the US. So the conclusion is obvious: take advantage of professionals born and educated in America and push them to the commodities salaries band.
hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
12/4/2011 | 10:00:01 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
One of my major gripes with the people writing these blog articles is that they probably never worked in IT in the first place.

I tell young Americans to avoid IT because you have to compete with the whole world even in your own country. With a plethora of visa types be it H1B, B1, L1, etc. companies can keep labor costs down.

Just common sense would tell you that if your job can be done in the third world for one third of the cost being your salary is that sooner or later that you are going to lose your job.

Anyone who works in the trenches at Oracle, EBay, Yahoo, Google, etc. will tell you first hand that the companies are highly H1B infested and very few US nationals are employed in IT.

Even worse is hearing nonsensical arguments about bringing in foreigners create more US jobs. What is not said is that bringing in more foreigners more often than not just brings in more foreigners to work in the US.

Phil11
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Phil11,
User Rank: Apprentice
12/5/2011 | 3:54:37 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
In the Capitalistic Society money is made on stability (it's called prosperity where the benefits of hard work are available to the contributors and investors) or on destabilization (it's called crisis where essentially all of the money is channeled to speculators and middleman). Sending hundreds of thousand of IT jobs to India and China and bringing thousands of inexperienced Asian workers in is the essence of creation of chaos. The headhunters companies make every year nearly 100 billion of U.S. dollars doing just that that. That means that the U.S. IT workers are deprived of 100 billion of the fruits of their work which goes to the middleman. The crisis sees no end...
hoapres
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hoapres,
User Rank: Apprentice
12/5/2011 | 8:47:53 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
The only end to this crisis is when foreign labor is more expensive than American labor.

Will that happen ??

The most likely for that to happen is if the US dollar crashes relative to other currencies. The US has gotten a free ride to the extent that the US dollar is the world's reserve currency.

How much longer that is going to be is anybody's guess. Right now the dollar seems to be the only game in town with regards to currencies. The gig is up when everybody decides most likely at the same time that acquiring more dollars is risker than dumping the current ones in their possession.

Right now we have a $15 trillion dollar debt along with $40 trillion in future unfunded liabilities with a GDP of about $15 trillion. We are having deficits close to $1.3 trillion being almost 10% of the GDP. Also we are having a trade deficit of over $30 billion a month.

Who knows how much longer this Ponzi scheme can continue ?? Many if not most of the Indian and Chinese H1Bs that are sending dollars back home are having the relatives convert them into gold and silver.

Or in other words, they are taking dollars but not holding onto them. One of the reasons inflation is really taking off is the prices of basic necessities (unlike IPads which you can't eat) is because foreign individuals and countries with a glut of dollars actually want to buy something.

braya
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braya,
User Rank: Apprentice
1/20/2012 | 5:28:27 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
i might be digressing here a bit but what about those illegal immigrants that are IT-inclined that might will soon be granted amnesty, become permanent residents and earn a certificate or a degree, should we start to whine about them too? LOL..

let's just shut up, prove our niche and compete not unless we are scared to do so. we might cry unfair because the country is loosely being invaded by foreign IT talent but what about America being the worldwide bull not only in the IT work field? are we really looking at the bigger picture?
spintreebob
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spintreebob,
User Rank: Apprentice
2/27/2013 | 9:31:35 PM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
As an IT consultant I've worked beside immigrants all 30 years. I see management making decisions. They put in the budget and try to staff up 3 projects. But they are unable to fully staff all 3 with citizens, even when the hiring manager consciously discriminates in favor of citizens. So they face 3 choices. 1) Kill one of the projects and shift the partial staff of that one to the two survivors. 2) Offshore the project (usually to India). 3) Hire immigrants.

With options 1 and 2 us citizens have fewer jobs. With option 3 us citizens have more jobs. What most nativists don't realize is that immigration and offshoring are enemies of each other.

Any attempt to repeal the law of supply and demand is sure to create unintended consequences.
builder7
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builder7,
User Rank: Apprentice
3/1/2013 | 4:25:19 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
It may be so that all of these companies were formed by immigrants, but they were immigrants who stood in line to get into the country, not leapfrogged to the top by taking a H1B visa job. It also makes sense that they should hire the IT workers here that already have an adequate education and experience in the field to be able to help a company. Because companies are not hiring Americans that already have this education is one concern that I have over these types of bills. By letting companies hire all over the world, it allows them to cherry pick from a lot larger group of applicants, which gives the American worker much less standing. I guess that just because a person is an American citizen, that does not guarantee them a job, so an Indian or Chinese should have preferences over them. After all, people come and go into this country all the time without repercussions or papers. This would give them some papers that would enable them to take American workers jobs. If there really was a shortage of talent here then why don't companies with business here hire the unemployed that are perfectly fit to work there. Because they might have to train them, and this would cost them something, and if they hired somebody from India they would work for peanuts. That way corporations that do business in this country can denigrate the people who perform the work. After all, I am sure that they can put a million foreigners to work easily, but are unable to solve the unemployment problems here. When is the 1% going to stop conducting war on the rest of us in this country?!
JimC
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JimC,
User Rank: Apprentice
3/1/2013 | 10:35:03 AM
re: Foreigners Don't Take IT Jobs, They Create Them
Outsourcing the IT job of an "average professional" in the U.S. to India or China for equal or inferior work is based on price. Companies shouldn't swap out average work here for average work over there because the workers are cheaper to hire/keep. Expelling above-average Indian or Chinese students of IT who are in the U.S. is stupid. If they're smart enough to earn graduate degrees, then they're smart enough to start companies and hire those average U.S. workers.
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