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Too Old To Earn Big In IT?
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Susan_Nunziata
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Susan_Nunziata,
User Rank: Strategist
7/7/2014 | 5:25:27 PM
Re: Age discrimination DOES exist
@BigUglyMike: Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. I'm sorry you had to go through that, and based on what I hear you are definitely NOT alone in what you went through in the latter part of your career. Major kudos to you for not letting it keep you down, and for staying busy and current even during the period after your layoff. I was unaware of that rule about layoffs of over 100 people, good to know.

What advice do you have for others in our community who are in a similar situation in their careers?
DDURBIN1
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DDURBIN1,
User Rank: Ninja
7/7/2014 | 4:46:17 PM
Re: The ADEA field of dreams

The Supreme Court's IBM rulings on ADEA affect all industries.  The Supreme Court has given corporations a free ride to displace older workers whether a sales agent, marketing manager, purchasing buyer, or an engineer.  IT workers, however, are hit with a double whammy as technology changes every 5 years or less.  Most employers nowadays resist investing in IT employees making aging IT workers face out dated skills when shown the door.   Even if their skills are up to date, it is still hard for 40 plus IT workers (and other careers) to find a job regardless.  I believe one of the key reasons for this is self-insured healthcare coverage.   Most corporations have healthcare coverage that's self-insured where they pay healthcare bills out of their own pockets and the risk is spread only over the corporation's employee base, not spread over a nationwide health insurance company such as Blue Cross Blue Shield.   BCBS, Humana and others are just the paper shuffler for these corporations.   So I don't see things' improving for older workers until Congress puts more muscle in IDEA and solves the problem with corporations' efforts to reduce their healthcare cost risks by displacing and not hiring older workers.  I don't see either happening anytime soon as Congress and the Supreme Court have been more pro-business than pro-citizen for the past 30 years.

sferguson10001
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sferguson10001,
User Rank: Moderator
7/7/2014 | 3:23:47 PM
Re: Let them Know
@Susan: is there any sense from the readers, or the surveys that you write about, of people going to actually complain about this in a legal way? Do IT managers have conversations with the HR department about these issues? Do they try and bring a lawsuit against the employer when discriminated against? How hard is it to prove what people are saying?
Susan_Nunziata
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Susan_Nunziata,
User Rank: Strategist
7/7/2014 | 2:46:24 PM
Re: Let them Know
@Gary_EL: That flattening of salaries is indeed disturbing, and of course it is based on a median. There are also variables such as region of the country that are not accounting for. Nonethelss, overall it's quite evident that there is a hard stop to one's earning potential in IT, and anyone who has incurred educational debt should be aware that the opportunities to earn do have their limits. I am ambivalent about these results. On the one hand, it depresses me that those over 45 don't appear to have any great opportunities for advancement. On the other hand, I can see where a company would need to create some baseline limits for salaries across an organizaiton, so perhaps those over 45 are just hitting the ceiling as far as earnings opportunites go in the field.

What interests me most about our salary survey results is the  number of people who have served in positions outside of IT, and I think that as we move to an increasingly digital business model, those who begin their careers in tech may have more oportunities than those who came before them to cross over to the business side of things. One CIO friend of mine was named VP of Sales at his organization when he was in his late 40s because of the work he'd done improving sales operations thru tech.
Susan_Nunziata
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Susan_Nunziata,
User Rank: Strategist
7/7/2014 | 2:38:52 PM
Re: The IDEA field of dreams
@Ariella: I've heard similar stories, and across many different industries. Though it seems particularly acute and perhaps more blatant in tech these days. Your friend has  my sympathies, and I find it rather ridiculous that one is not valued for their experience. The assumption I see made also is that older employees are not as agile and flexible in their thinking and in my experience that is 100% NOT the case. I've encountered employees of all ages who were agile and I've encountered plenty of younger employees who were extremely rigid in their thinking and completely in capable of ciritical thinking or function on their own without being told what to do.

Job Perfromance has so much more to do with mindset and attitude than it does with physical age. And that is true for all geneations.
Susan_Nunziata
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Susan_Nunziata,
User Rank: Strategist
7/7/2014 | 2:34:10 PM
Re: The IDEA field of dreams
@DDURBIN1: And if that's not depressing enough, have you seen this: "The Brutal Ageism of Tech."

In reseraching this piece, I fell down a rabbit hole in looking at laws in other countries related to ageism. The general consensus in the legal profession is that the U.S. has some of the best age discrimination laws in the world! No small consolation considering the examples you site, and the stories I hear anecdotally any day.

In my experience these issues are not exclusive to IT; I know folks of all job descriptions over 40 who have suffered career slumps or outright unemployment since 1999. Anecdotally specaking the economic upheaval of the early 2000s seems to have affected the over-40 population very dramaticlaly, despite the slightly more positive picture painted by the recent employment stats.

Do you think we'll see a turaround as the economy improves? Will experience every have value again in our tech economy?
BigUglyMike
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BigUglyMike,
User Rank: Apprentice
7/7/2014 | 2:17:20 PM
Age discrimination DOES exist
First I am an old timer in programming having started with Assembler under DOS-360 in 1969. Since then I have worked hard at staying current with systems and languages and even earning an MS-IS from Penn State in 1999.

I was working for Shared Medical Systems programming on IBM 'Z' and AS-400 systems along with C on some UNIX system when we were bought by Siemens. I was laid off in October 2001, just 3 weeks shy of my 55th birthday, along with 95 other folks - mostly male and almost all over 45. The '95' is important because by being under 100, federal and state reports are not required.

For the next several years I stayed busy doing contract work and teaching programming as an adjunct at both 4 year and community colleges.


In 2007, at age 60, is was hired by the local transit agency. They were in need of someone what had VAX, UNIX and Windows experience - all of which I posses. A new co-worker who was 58 informed me that at my age I will NEVER get a promotion which has proven to be true. Many young folks with both less education and experience have been promoted above me. My only downfall has been age.

Soon it will not be relavant as I plan to retire in a couple of months when I turn 68.
Susan_Nunziata
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Susan_Nunziata,
User Rank: Strategist
7/7/2014 | 2:12:23 PM
Re: Tw o Comments
@Number6: There's a definite gap in the government stats. The BLS provides broad unemployment data broken down by age ranges, and the Occupational Employment Statistics provides a breakdown by industry sector but does not have demographic information such as age or gender for those specific industry categories. I'll keep digging. Meanwhile, here are some stats about what the OES calls "computer and mathematical occupations." This information was updated April 1, 2014 for calendar year 2013:

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_stru.htm#15-0000

To your second point, I have heard from many sources that age discrimination is rampant in IT.

What I don't know is what it looks like.

Let's go beyond what's spelled out by law: Tell us what you've seen or experienced in IT that you felt was indicative of age discrimination.

 
Gary_EL
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Gary_EL,
User Rank: Ninja
7/7/2014 | 1:49:26 PM
Let them Know
Looking at your Table 1, I see regular increases in salary for IT staff until age 45 or so. After 45  ....  Flat. The problem is that, human nature being what it is college age people have (and want!) very little contact with us older folks. They don't realize, or believe, that they are going massively in debt and spending the best years of their life entering a career path that, for most of them, will lead to a dead end.
Ariella
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Ariella,
User Rank: Ninja
7/7/2014 | 1:30:44 PM
Re: The IDEA field of dreams
I have an online acquaintance with someone who worked in IT for decades. When his last job ended, he said he really didn't believe he'd have a shot at a new one, as he was already 62. In truth, in other fields, it also can be difficult to find a new job at that point, but IT, in particular, is often associated with younger people in the minds of some of the gatekeepers. 
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